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Did Luther say, “Be a sinner and sin boldly”?
https://web.archive.org/web/20140528104851/http://tquid.sharpens.org/sin_boldly.htm ^ | 2005 | James Swan

Posted on 07/08/2018 10:03:40 AM PDT by Luircin

IV. Sin Boldly: A Detailed Analysis

The Letter to Melanchthon ends with the famous “sin boldly” statement:

“If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly,  but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here [in this world]  we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness,  but, as Peter says,  we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. It is enough that by the riches of God’s glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world.  No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner.”[23]

It’s important to work slowly through this striking exhortation to Melanchthon, remembering that Wittenberg was not a calm spiritual community. It was a place under turmoil. Melanchthon was to face trials both from within his own small group of leaders and outside from the political juggernauts of the papacy and the empire. The situations involving marriage, celibacy, and the Lord’s Supper discussed above may seem like debatable academic subjects to the modern reader, but during these early years of the Reformation they were important societal topics that provoked deep emotion. Changes in these practices were changes in the very fabric of society. Luther encourages his co-worker to stand strong in the faith. The very community that Luther was responsible for was in the hands of Melanchthon.[24] Luther’s final exhortation in this letter is for Melanchthon to hold fast to the firm gospel of Jesus Christ. Whatever trouble may come, Melanchthon was to be true to the Gospel.

What follows is a line-by-line analysis of the paragraph containing the exhortation to “sin boldly.”

“If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace…”

Luther exhorts Melanchthon to stand firm and preach the pure gospel. The pure gospel proclaims God’s true grace. It is a grace that actually forgives all a man’s sins, without any works of penance geared toward eventual justification. The papal system Luther was part of taught that God’s grace could be attained by faith combined good works, and that the sacrament of penance must be carried out to completely forgive a man for sin. This would be a fictitious grace. As Ewald Plass points out, “The concept of grace was, of course, not unknown to Luther the Catholic. But this term, as so many others, had become a ‘weasel word’ in the Church of Rome, a word emptied of its Scriptural meaning. Thus grace was turned ‘from the divine source of pardon and forgiveness into an infused ability (gratia infusa) of man to perform good works for his own salvation.’ ”[25]

“…if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners.”

What does Luther mean “fictitious sin”? Perhaps he has in mind what he had just discussed: people thinking they were sinning by only receiving the bread and not the wine in the Lord’s Supper. This would indeed be a fictitious sin. Elsewhere though, Luther describes the “fictitious sins” concocted by the papacy:

“There are commandments and teachings of the pope which say nothing at all about faith in Christ, as the Gospel does, but merely about obedience to him in bodily, trivial, trifling matters, such as the eating of meat, observing festivals, fasting, dressing, etc. Yet the pope has emphasized and extolled these far more than God's Word, and they are feared and followed far more, have more thoroughly terrified and captivated consciences, and have made hell far hotter than did both God's Law and His Gospel. For they have given little regard to unbelief, blasphemy, adultery, murder, theft, and whatever else is opposed to Christ and His command; for these sins penance was quickly done and forgiveness given. But when someone touched one of the pope's commandments, the bulls had to come with lightning and thunder. This was called damned disobedience and brought a man under the ban of the pope. Now heaven and earth had to tremble in terror. But when sins against God were concerned, sins in which they themselves are drowned, not a leaf stirred. On the contrary, they mocked and laughed at the matter in great security, as they do to this day. Besides this, they persecute and murder in a cruel manner all who esteem God’s commandment above the commandment of their abomination. The pope wants God and His Word under him; he wants himself enthroned above them. This is his regime and nature. Without these he could not be the Antichrist.”[26]

Luther says that God does not save people who are only “fictitious sinners.” No, God saves actual sinners. “Luther often called actual sin, as does Scripture…spiritual adultery.”[27] Luther says all men have a “lust for divinity”: “No sin troubles us as severely as the lust after divinity. Of course, the lust of the flesh is also a furiously strong urge, yet it is only a form (of sin) and nothing in comparison with spiritual lust or fornication.”[28] All actual sins are attempts to deify ourselves. As Ewald Plass points out, “At the heart of every sin which our corrupt nature moves us to commit is the burning desire to recognize no one as superior to ourselves…Luther points to this as the common denominator of all actual sins.”[29] In our zeal to be our own gods, we psychological say, “I do not believe God’s ways are the right way for me.” Thus, at our spiritual roots, our actions are the result of unbelief in the heart- a blatant disbelief that God’s way is the best way. We are all indeed, actual sinners.

“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world.”

Luther was prone to strong hyperbole. It's his style, and this statement is a perfect example. Luther doesn't write analytical theology. He writes profound verbose sentiment driving one to think deeply.

The first thing to recognize is that the sentence is a statement of comparison. Luther's point is not to go out and commit multiple amounts of gleeful sin everyday, but rather to believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly despite the sin in our lives. Christians have a real savior. No amount of sin is too much to be atoned for by a perfect savior whose righteousness is imputed to the sinner who reaches out in faith. But what then is the practical application of sinning “boldly”? What is at the heart of this comparison? Luther explains elsewhere how to take on the attitude of sinning “boldly”:

“Therefore let us arm our hearts with these and similar statements of Scripture so that, when the devil accuses us by saying: You are a sinner; therefore you are damned, we can reply: The very fact that you say I am a sinner makes me want to be just and saved. Nay, you will be damned, says the devil. Indeed not, I reply, for I take refuge in Christ, who gave Himself for my sins. Therefore you will accomplish nothing, Satan, by trying to frighten me by setting the greatness of my sins before me and thus seducing me to sadness, doubt, despair, hatred, contempt, and blasphemy of God. Indeed, by calling me a sinner you are supplying me with weapons against yourself so that I can slay and destroy you with your own sword; for Christ died for sinners. Furthermore, you yourself proclaim the glory of God to me; you remind me of God's paternal love for me, a miserable and lost sinner; for He so loved the world that He gave His Son (John 3:16). Again, whenever you throw up to me that I am a sinner, you revive in my memory the blessing of Christ, my Redeemer, on whose shoulders, and not on mine, lie all my sins; for "the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all" and "for the transgression of His people was He stricken" (Is. 53:6-8). Therefore when you throw up to me that I am a sinner, you are not terrifying me; you are comforting me beyond measure.”[30]

The strong hyperbolic comparison Luther makes between “sinning boldly” and believing and rejoicing in Christ “even more boldly” comes clear. When assaulted by the fear and doubt of Christ’s love because of previous sins or the remnants of sin in one’s life, one is thrust back into the arms of Christ “on whose shoulders, and not on mine, lie all my sins…”. Rather than promoting a license to sin by saying “sin boldly,” Luther’s point is to simply compare the sinner to the perfect savior. Left in our sins we will face nothing but death and damnation. By Christ’s victory over sin, death, and the world, we stand clothed in His righteousness, the recipients of His grace, no matter what we have done.

It also should be pointed out, Luther was not simply telling Melanchthon to try really hard to be “bold”. Elsewhere Luther points out that the Holy Spirit is that which makes one bold. Preaching on John 15: ‘And ye also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning,’ Luther tells his hearers that Christ is saying:

“Yes; then, first, when you become certain of your faith through the Holy Spirit, who is your witness, you must also bear witness of me, for to that end I chose you to be apostles. You have heard my words and teachings and have seen my works and life and all things that you are to preach. But the Holy Spirit must first be present; otherwise you can do nothing, for the conscience is too weak. Yes, there is no sin so small that the conscience could vanquish it, even if it were so trifling a one as laughing in church, Again, in the presence of death the conscience is far too weak to offer resistance. Therefore another must come and give to the timid, despairing conscience, courage to go through everything, although all sins be upon it. And it must, at the same time, be an almighty courage, like he alone can give who ministers strength in such a way that the courage, which before a rustling leaf could cause to fear, is now not afraid of all the devils, and the conscience that before could not restrain laughing, now restrains all sins.”[31]

“As long as we are here [in this world]  we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness,  but, as Peter says,  we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. It is enough that by the riches of God’s glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world.”

This is simply the same message Paul proclaims in Romans 7. Even though a man has been justified by Christ and had His righteousness imputed to him, the remnants of sin still remain. Paul says,

“For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.”

For Luther, the remnants of sin were not a license to “sin boldly”. Commenting on Romans 7:17, the sins that remain in a believer’s life are there to be fought:

“Sin remains in the spiritual man for the exercise of grace, the humbling of pride, and the repression of presumption. For he who is not busily at work driving out sin without a doubt has sin by the very fact of this neglect, even though he has committed no further sin for which he may be damned. For we are not called to idleness; we are called to labor against our passions. These would not be without guilt—for they are truly sins, indeed damnable ones — if the mercy of God did not forego imputing them to us. But He does not impute them to those only who manfully undertake the struggle with their failings and, calling upon the grace of God, fight it through. Therefore he who goes to confession should not fancy that he is laying down burdens in order to live a life of ease. On the contrary, he should know that by laying down the burden he is undertaking to serve as a soldier of God and is taking a different burden upon himself, the burden of battling for God against the devil and his own failings. The man who does not know this will suffer a quick relapse. Therefore he who does not intend henceforth to fight—why does he ask to be absolved and to be enrolled in the army of Christ?”[32]

“No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner.”

Luther’s critics often quote this statement. The Catholic scholar Jared Wicks has correctly pointed out, “One needs to be on the lookout for Luther's rhetorical flights, and to be judicious in discriminating between the substance of his message and the linguistic extremes with which he sometimes made his points.”[33] The above statement is a perfect example. The point Luther is making is not to go out and murder or fornicate as much as possible, but rather to point out the infinite sacrifice of Christ’s atonement. There is no sin that Christ cannot cover. His atonement was of an infinite value. That this statement was not to be considered literally is apparent by Luther’s use of argumentum ad absurdum: do people really commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day? No. Not even the most heinous God-hating sinner is able to carry out such a daily lifestyle.

Secondly, one must recall the recipient of this letter: Phillip Melanchthon. No historical information exists that indicts Melanchthon of ever murdering or fornicating, even once. The Lutheran writer W.H.T. Dau presents the absurdity of the arguments put forth by Roman Catholic authors along these lines:

“ ‘Be a sinner, and sin bravely, but believe more bravely still’- this is the chef d’oeuvre of the muck-rackers in Luther’s life…What caused Luther to write these words? Did Melanchthon contemplate some crime which he was too timid to perpetrate? According to the horrified expressions of Catholics that must have been the situation. Luther, in their view, says to Melanchthon: Philip, you are a simpleton. Why scruple about a sin? You are confined in the trammels of very narrow-minded moral views. You must get rid of them. Have the courage to be wicked. Make a hero of yourself by executing some bold piece of iniquity. Be an ‘Uebermensch.’ Sin with brazen unconcern; be a fornicator, a murderer, a liar, a thief, defy every moral statute,- only do not forget to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. His grace is intended, not for hesitating, craven sinners, but for audacious, spirited, high minded criminals…Can the reader induce himself to believe that Luther advised Melanchthon to do what he himself knew was a moral impossibility to himself because of his relation to God?…What brave sin did Melanchthon actually commit upon being thus advised by Luther?”[34]

On the other hand, Luther ends by saying, “you too are a mighty sinner” so “pray boldly.” Here, Luther points out the seriousness of sin. While Christ’s sacrifice and work are infinite enough to cover the most heinous of sins, any sin in a person’s life makes them a “mighty sinner” in need of a savior. A little sinner winds up in Hell just as the mighty sinners do, thus we are all really mighty enough sinners to deserve damnation.

That Luther’s words should not be taken literally is clear from statements he made elsewhere about heinous sin:

“Works only reveal faith, just as fruits only show the tree, whether it is a good tree. I say, therefore, that works justify, that is, they show that we have been justified, just as his fruits show that a man is a Christian and believes in Christ, since he does not have a feigned faith and life before men. For the works indicate whether I have faith. I conclude, therefore, that he is righteous, when I see that he does good works. In God’s eyes that distinction is not necessary, for he is not deceived by hypocrisy. But it is necessary among men, so that they may correctly understand where faith is and where it is not. As Paul says, we ought not to trust a faith which is false, as when someone believes he is a part of the church although he meanwhile still whores [I Cor. 5:11]. In this I see that he is not a good tree and when he glories saying, “I am a part,” I can argue against him, “You are not part of the church, because your works are evil.” Therefore, those works are also evidence to himself and to others about him whether he has the true faith. For those who glory that they are Christians and do not show this faith by such works, as this sinful woman does, but persist up to the present and live in open sins, in whoring and adultery, are not Christians at all. For the Christian shows his life and that he has been made a Christian by love and good works and flees all vices. We should not be a part of the church in number only, as the hypocrites, but also by our works, so that our heavenly Father may be glorified. Love merits forgiveness of sins, that is, love reveals that his sins have been forgiven.”[35]

For Luther, outward sins like murder and adultery were obviously bad. But these were only a symptom of unbelief, which is the root of all outward sin. In a sermon on Luke 18, Luther discusses the faith of the Publican as compared to the works of the Pharisee:

“Now let us better see and hear what the Lord says to this. There stands the publican and humbles himself, says nothing of fasting, nothing of his good works, nor of anything. Yet the Lord says that his sins are not so great as the sins of the hypocrite; even in spite of anyone now exalting himself above the lowest sinner. If I exalt myself a finger's breadth above my neighbor, or the vilest sinner, then am I cast down. For the publican during his whole life did not do as many and as great sins as this Pharisee does here when he says: I thank thee God that, I am not as other men are; and lies enough to burst all heaven. From him you hear no word like: "God, be thou merciful to me a sinner!" God's mercy, sympathy, patience and love are all forgotten by him, while God is nothing but pure mercy, and he who does not know this, thinks there is no God, as in Psalm 14:1: "The fool hath Said in his heart, There is no God." So it is with an unbeliever who does not know himself. Therefore I say one thing more, if he had committed the vilest sin and deflowered virgins, it would not have been as bad as when he says: "I thank thee God, that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican." Yes, yes, do I hear you have no need of God and despise his goodness, mercy, love and everything that God is? Behold, these are thy sins. Hence the public gross sins that break out are insignificant; but unbelief which is in the heart and we cannot see, this is the real sin in which monks and priests strut forth; these lost and corrupt ones are sunk head and ears in this sin, and pretend to be entirely free from it.”[36]

In the above statement, one can see Luther’s brilliance with language and theological insight. How many of us think of unbelief as an extreme heinous sin? Compared to blatant fornication or murder, unbelief seems to us as not so bad. Luther though realizes that unbelief is a sin against a holy God, and thus more heinous than any amount of murder or adultery. A sin against a perfect infinite being deserves a perfect infinite punishment. All of us are indeed, mighty sinners.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic; luther; reformation; sin
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To: delchiante

Let me ask a simpler question.

How does one attain salvation?


381 posted on 07/10/2018 1:50:53 PM PDT by Luircin
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To: delchiante
During the Age of Grace, there is no distinction between Greek and Jew (Greek taken to represent gentiles). The Prophecies of Daniel were to the Jews. The gap between the sixty-ninth week and the seventieth week (ALL the weeks were for the Jews) is only hinted at in The OT. Many err by trying to fit Christianity into the prophecies given to The People (the Hebrews). As the Spirit told Daniel:

9:24 24 Seventy weeks have been decreed concerning your people and your holy city: to restrain transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for lawlessness, to establish everlasting righteousness, to conclude vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Am I saying do not ever apply what is in the OT to Christianity? Heaven forbid! I am cautioning that going too far with application leads to obstinate and exclusive rigor.

382 posted on 07/10/2018 1:51:45 PM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensational perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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To: boatbums

The great lie : salvation comes “through the Church which is his body.” That lie is so subtle that it not only conflates the ORG with the actual whole body of believers, not an org, but the lie also asserts boldly that salvation comes through the institutional org! (Org rhymes with Borg, BTW)


383 posted on 07/10/2018 1:57:30 PM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensational perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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To: metmom; Luircin

Ask Luircin.


384 posted on 07/10/2018 2:26:37 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: delchiante
Okay, "about" 2000, "about" 3000...what is the gospel you preach and why all the mystery? I hope you know that that is the way cults go about luring gullible people in.

    Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ. (II Cor. 4:2-6)

385 posted on 07/10/2018 2:29:34 PM PDT by boatbums (The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation, but washes you upon the Rock of Ages.)
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To: ebb tide; Luircin

I’m asking YOU.

Answer it please.

If Leo X were now your pope instead of Francis, would accept him or reject him?

ANd I[’m not asking if you’d prefer him over Francis. I’m asking that if here were your pope as Francis is, legitimately elected by the college of cardinals as the pope, would you accept him or not?


386 posted on 07/10/2018 2:32:13 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith......)
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To: ebb tide; metmom

Probably something to do with some Caths getting sick of being asked questions involving simple logic that they can’t answer without looking like obvious hypocrites.

Because Leo X used the services of John Tetzel, who preached that buying an indulgence could forgive the sin of raping the virgin Mary. (Tetzel said it, not me.)

Because Leo X had whorehouses just for priests in the Vatican.

Because Leo X left the Vatican bankrupt.

But Luther opposed Leo X and all these wicked things.

And some Catholics just can’t admit that Luther was right about anything because it would shatter their vain self image.

So they can’t answer that, because they are either de facto supporting Vatican whores and being allowed to buy your way out of raping Mary...

... or supporting Luther, who is apparently much worse in their eyes. But they dare not admit it.

At least that’s my best guess.


387 posted on 07/10/2018 3:16:06 PM PDT by Luircin
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To: Luircin; metmom
At least that’s my best guess.

You did a whole lot of talking; but you guessed wrong.

Feel free to tell metmom why I don't answer your question.

388 posted on 07/10/2018 3:38:20 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: boatbums
Looks like the SAME thing to me!


"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours."

--Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215)

 

 

    How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the head through the Church which is his body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on Earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

    This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men" (CCC 846-48)

     

    Pick one.


389 posted on 07/10/2018 3:46:43 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Luircin
History presents few characters that have suffered more senseless misrepresentation, even bald caricature, than Tetzel. "Even while he lived stories which contained an element of legend gathered around his name, until at last, in the minds of the uncritical Protestant historians, he became the typical indulgence-monger, upon whom any well-worn anecdote might be fathered" (Beard, "Martin Luther", London, 1889, 210). For a critical scholarly study which shows him in a proper perspective, he had to wait the researches of our own time, mainly at the hands of Dr. Nicholas Paulus, who is closely followed in this article. In the first place, his teaching regarding the indulgences for the living was correct. The charge that the forgiveness of sins was sold for money regardless of contrition or that absolution for sins to be committed in the future could be purchased is baseless. An indulgence, he writes, can be applied only "to the pains of sin which are confessed and for which there is contrition". "No one", he furthermore adds, "secures an indulgence unless he have true contrition". The confessional letters (confessionalia) could of course be obtained for a mere pecuniary consideration without demanding contrition. But such document did not secure an indulgence. It was simply a permit to select a proper confessor, who only after a contrite confession would absolve from sin and reserved cases, and who possessed at the same time facilities to impart the plenary indulgence (Paulus, "Johann Tetzel", 103).

Johann Tetzel

390 posted on 07/10/2018 3:49:27 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: Luircin
Because Leo X used the services of John Tetzel, who preached that buying an indulgence could forgive the sin of raping the virgin Mary. (Tetzel said it, not me.)

The Bible's Mary or Rome's Mary?

391 posted on 07/10/2018 3:49:44 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie; Luircin; metmom; ealgeone
Wanna talk about her?

Sure!

6 Beautiful Quotes on Mary You Won’t Believe Are From Martin Luther

392 posted on 07/10/2018 3:59:04 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: Elsie

And there is a difference!


393 posted on 07/10/2018 4:12:29 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone; Elsie; Luircin

What’s the difference between Luther’s Mary and Rome’s Mary?


394 posted on 07/10/2018 4:20:44 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: ebb tide; Elsie; Luircin; metmom; ealgeone
Sure! 6 Beautiful Quotes on Mary You Won’t Believe Are From Martin Luther

Help me out here, ET, so this week you like Luther???

395 posted on 07/10/2018 4:44:31 PM PDT by boatbums (The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation, but washes you upon the Rock of Ages.)
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To: boatbums

Luther was a solid, Catholic priest, until Satan won him over.


396 posted on 07/10/2018 4:46:57 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: Luircin

Same way for all.

How does one attain sanctification?


397 posted on 07/10/2018 5:14:38 PM PDT by delchiante
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To: ebb tide

Oh, I guessed the REAL reason you refused to answer, not the puny excuse you’re using now.

So by defending Tetzel, I guess you’re in favor of the sale of indulgences and talking about raping Mary.

Or was Luther right to oppose that?


398 posted on 07/10/2018 5:25:56 PM PDT by Luircin
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To: delchiante

Answer the question. If someone asked you how to obtain salvation what wouls you say?


399 posted on 07/10/2018 5:26:36 PM PDT by Luircin
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To: ebb tide

It’s Rome’s Mary....the Marian dogmas are not Biblical no matter who espouses them.


400 posted on 07/10/2018 5:27:10 PM PDT by ealgeone
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