Posted on 06/25/2018 6:35:18 PM PDT by Faith Presses On
...Aftermath: Part 3 was the sermon that got the most attention -- the one where Stanley suggested that you need to "unhitch" your faith from the Old Testament as he insisted the New Testament writers did. To make his point, Stanley taught from Acts 15 and the story of the Jerusalem council.
(snip)
...If Stanley said the conclusion of the Jerusalem council pertained to Mosaic dietary laws, how did he explain the command to abstain from sexual immorality? Not well.
Moral Decay
Stanley said, "If I were to hand everybody a 3x5 card, and I were to say, 'Tell me what you think this [sexual immorality] means or what this means to you, how many different answers would I get? About as many answers as there are cards, right?"
I hope not. There's only one answer to that question. Sexual immorality is any kind of sex or eroticism outside of the covenant of marriage between a man and his wife...
(snip)
"To send a bunch of Gentiles this, to abstain from sexual immorality, what does this even mean?" Stanley said, "This was a general call to avoid immoral behavior but not immoral behavior as defined by the Old Testament." By what standard is sexuality defined for the church? Stanley went on to explain that it is, "defined by the Apostle Paul who had been teaching in Antioch for two or more years."
(snip)
"Do you know what the Apostle Paul consistently tied sexual behavior to?" Stanley asked. "Not the Old Covenant. Not the Ten Commandments. The one commandment that Jesus gave us: that you are to treat others as God through Christ has treated you." That's certainly not wrong, but neither was it given any clarity...
(Excerpt) Read more at pastorgabehughes.blogspot.com ...
Where?
Are we forgiven or not? Did Crist die for nothing?
I thought Jesus died for our sins. I must be wrong?
Praise God/Jesus for the incredible gift He gave us!!!!
The whole OT is critical to knowing who Jesus is.
It points to Him through and through so we can recognize Him.
Read the passage in context with the New Testament.
Annihilationism is the belief that unbelievers will not experience an eternity of suffering in hell, but will instead be “extinguished” after death. For many, annihilationism is an attractive belief because of the awfulness of the idea of people spending eternity in hell. While there are some passages that seem to argue for annihilationism, a comprehensive look at what the Bible says about the destiny of the wicked reveals the fact that punishment in hell is eternal. A belief in annihilationism results from a misunderstanding of one or more of the following doctrines: 1) the consequences of sin, 2) the justice of God, 3) the nature of hell.
In relation to the nature of hell, annihilationists misunderstand the meaning of the lake of fire. Obviously, if a human being were cast into a lake of burning lava, he/she would be almost instantly consumed. However, the lake of fire is both a physical and spiritual realm. It is not simply a human body being cast into the lake of fire; it is a human’s body, soul, and spirit. A spiritual nature cannot be consumed by physical fire. It seems that the unsaved are resurrected with a body prepared for eternity just as the saved are (Revelation 20:13; Acts 24:15). These bodies are prepared for an eternal fate.
Eternity is another aspect which annihilationists fail to fully comprehend. Annihilationists are correct that the Greek word aionion, which is usually translated “eternal,” does not by definition mean “eternal.” It specifically refers to an “age” or “eon,” a specific period of time. However, it is clear that in New Testament, aionion is sometimes used to refer to an eternal length of time. Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented “day and night forever and ever.” It is clear that these three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire. Why would the fate of the unsaved be any different (Revelation 20:14-15)? The most convincing evidence for the eternality of hell is Matthew 25:46, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.” If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in hell forever.
Another frequent objection to the eternality of hell by annihilationists is that it would be unjust for God to punish unbelievers in hell for eternity for a finite amount of sin. How could it be fair for God to take a person who lived a sinful, 70-year life, and punish him/her for all of eternity? The answer is that our sin bears an eternal consequence because it is committed against an eternal God. When King David committed the sins of adultery and murder he stated, “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight” (Psalm 51:4). David had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah; how could David claim to have only sinned against God? David understood that all sin is ultimately against God. God is an eternal and infinite Being. As a result, all sin against Him is worthy of an eternal punishment. It is not a matter of the length of time we sin, but the character of the God against whom we sin.
A more personal aspect of annihilationism is the idea that we could not possibly be happy in heaven if we knew that some of our loved ones were suffering an eternity of torment in hell. However, when we arrive in heaven, we will not have anything to complain about or be saddened by. Revelation 21:4 tells us, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” If some of our loved ones are not in heaven, we will be in 100 percent complete agreement that they do not belong there and that they are condemned by their own refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior (John 3:16; 14:6). It is hard to understand this, but we will not be saddened by the lack of their presence. Our focus should not be on how we can enjoy heaven without all of our loved ones there, but on how we can point our loved ones to faith in Christ so that they will be there.
Hell is perhaps a primary reason why God sent Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. Being “extinguished” after death is no fate to dread, but an eternity in hell most definitely is. Jesus’ death was an infinite death, paying our infinite sin debt so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21). When we place our faith in Him, we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. But if we reject God’s gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision.
https://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html
Good luck and take care.
Everything that Jesus said is out of the Old Testament, including John 3:16.
That is not true at all.
Our hearts have to be right with God. Here is the case of Simon the sorcerer from Acts 8:
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
If someone isn’t reborn in Christ spiritually, then that person’s sins aren’t forgiven.
Did you know that “reborn” is a mistranslation. Actually “ born again” was not in the original Greek. It was properly “ born from above”. Totally different. Entire professional franchise “ churches” are founded on a mistranslation.
John 3:16 does not require that “ heart be right”. Of course,that is so ambiguous and vague , it means nothing. Purely subjective. But the point being that the only thing required is you “believe in Him.” Then you have eternal life. Note that it does not say “ believe in Him and have your heart right” . Why do you stack things on your salvation ?
When looking at John 3:16-18, it is good to look at John 3:19-21 as well.
John 3:16-21:
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
Also, Jesus said in John 14:15, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”
As for “born again”, the Greek can mean either born again or born from above. But clearly, Nicodemus understood it as a second birth.
John 3:4
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
“I totally agree there’s much we should not do but also posit we cannot be 100% effective in being worthy - and any sin we commit is as bad as even the worst sinners (oxymoron since any sin is as bad as any other in God’s eyes) so while we should do our best, we also have zero right to cast any stones...even Paul, who was hand-picked to be the major purveyor of the New Covenant, lamented that he kept finding himself doing what he shouldn’t and not doing what he should...”
Yes, this is the part about acknowledging we’re not righteous in and of ourselves and that even our reconciling with God through His Son was not a selfless, virtuous act on our part, but what we come to recognize as truly best for us.
Being converted to Christ, though, does mean, as Paul says in the passage you mention here, that we have the mind of Christ and so see sin as He does. That will definitely lead in turn to us acting very differently. We can’t avoid sin entirely in this world, and all sin is sin as you describe, so again, we always need to remember that we have salvation because of God’s mercy, His grace and forgiveness. But we’re also new creatures in Christ, born again, and have gone from rebellion against the Lord to truly accepting His Lordship. It may be likened to what happened when Jesus washed the disciples’ feet. Jesus said that except for Judas, they were all entirely clean, but only needed their feet washed. It makes sense that our feet bring us in contact with this world (even the soil our flesh was formed out of), and we know that gets our feet (or shoes, in our time and place) dirty constantly. So all in all, there are definitely many differences between the believer and the unbeliever.
On not throwing stones, that’s very true also, but we do live in a time and place where just the existence of faithful Christians is considered by many people to be throwing stones of judgment, as are the Gospel and the New Testament and the whole Bible as well. I’ve seen atheists say that Christianity was invented by man so some people can control others, and it’s hateful for Christians “to try to scare people” with Hell. So no throwing stones, no, but the Bible and the New Testament especially instruct us in many things, and many of them are and will be perceived by those who don’t believe as throwing stones, but they’re not the Judge on that, the Lord is.
Amen, it is. The OT constantly points us to Him and reveals so much about Him. Andy Stanley used a lot of deception in this sermon series. No pastor or preacher is perfect, but there’s still a difference between being faithful to God’s Word and not being faithful to it. He seemed to have no qualms about misrepresenting God’s Word in all sorts of ways to his flock while teaching about it.
What you claim to believe is very wrong in so many ways, and everything you say is wrong in so many ways, that someone can hardly begin to address what’s not right.
Now on being born again, that’s what the Bible teaches. I have read translations that translate it “born from above,” and in a sense that’s a better translation since it’s closest to the original language, but God’s Word clearly teaches over and over that we need a second birth in Christ, a spiritual birth in addition to our physical birth. The two births are right there in John 3.
And that is what I mean about what you claim to believe being very wrong in so many ways. If you don’t accept that we need to be born again, then you’re wrong about so much Scripture by not seeing what it teaches on spiritual rebirth, and then your wrong understanding on spiritual rebirth causes you to be wrong on many other things, too.
“Actually “ born again” was not in the original Greek. It was properly “born from above”. Totally different. Entire professional franchise “ churches” are founded on a mistranslation.
John 3:16 does not require that “ heart be right”. Of course,that is so ambiguous and vague , it means nothing. Purely subjective. But the point being that the only thing required is you “believe in Him.” Then you have eternal life. Note that it does not say “ believe in Him and have your heart right.”
Now, once again, John 3, describing two different births, just by itself teaches we need to be born again. So does the rest of the New Testament, and in 1 Peter 1, Peter uses the exact phrase in Greek for “born again” in describing Christians. The fact that Scripture teaches we have to be born again is so extremely simple, if one wants to be in agreement with God, that it’s completely obvious, and that’s especially so since people actually experience it. It’s not only teachings in God’s Word, although that by itself would be enough.
And once again, on what you say about John 3:16, you create your own rules to suit yourself. To allow God to remake us leads to eternal life, while to try to remake God’s Word leads to Hell. So you decide that John 3:16 is one of the few things that will count, and give it the meaning you want. Well, there would be no knowing anything about God the Father and God the Son spoken of in John 3:16 without the rest of the Bible. Who would that “God” be? Zeus? Baal? Allah? Caesar? And what’s God like? Why does He need to give His Son for people to have salvation? And what does “giving” mean there? Then there’s the word “believe.” To your own peril do YOU decide what “believe” means there when one of the most important things God teaches us throughout His Word in both Testaments is what true belief in Him means, and it doesn’t have the meaning that you give it. That must be why you apparently from what you’ve said reject most of God’s Word.
“Why do you stack things on your salvation ?”
Is prayer “stacking things on salvation” to you? And how about you? I asked you before if you prayed, and if you prayed asking to know God’s will for you, and you avoided the question.
I and the others here aren’t stacking things on our salvation. We understand God’s salvation. From what you’ve posted, it seems like you think salvation purchased by Jesus’ blood is a license to freely sin, even an endorsement and encouragement to sin. Is that what you think?
I appreciate your thoughtful but incorrect opinion that somehow there are two emotional births. I’ll say this. You are honest and correct about the translation and I admire that. Here is the Gospel. If you accept Jesus as the risen Son of God you are immediately “born from above” and receive Parakletos sent by Jesus as comforter, guide. Teacher, advocate.and bearer of our spiritual gifts.in other words ,it is automatic.
Let me give you this Gospel. Let’s say that you think divorce is a sin. I thought we’re forgiven of our sins? I know that you know that sin is ambiguous and undefined. There are sins of commission and sins of omission. There are sins of thoughts and action and inaction. Sins are countless. Thou shalt not kill has numerous exceptions , right??? Now we see the glorious wisdom of God’s atoning sacrifice of His Son. One time. On the cross. Or Christ died for nothing. God bless you and rest in your salvation. I do.
“I appreciate your thoughtful but incorrect opinion that somehow there are two emotional births.”
That’s a very curious reply because in no way did I say “two emotional births.” How did you get “emotional” from physical and spiritual?
“I know that you know that sin is ambiguous and undefined. There are sins of commission and sins of omission. There are sins of thoughts and action and inaction. Sins are countless. Thou shalt not kill has numerous exceptions , right???”
No, sin really isn’t “ambiguous and undefined.” God’s Word defines it. And the commandment is actually “Thou shalt not murder.” Breaking certain laws meant the death penalty, which the Jews were to impose. That’s not murder. There are many ways to sin, yes, but they all come from our flesh while if we have been spiritually reborn in Christ (have Christ living inside of us) then we have His Spirit which wars against the sin nature. His Spirit will convict of us our sins.
Once again, too, you didn’t answer or address some most important questions. There are some questions that Christians today can have some legitimate disagreement on. An example would be how and when a Christian should be baptized. While I believe the Bible is clear on both, I still believe there’s some room at least for discussion because over almost 2,000 years, different ways of baptism were adopted and then passed down, so some Christians inherited these other ways. But mostly there are many things where there is no room for debate and discussion, and to contradict, deny or otherwise make claims that are not be able to stand up under the light of Scripture is simply error at best. The questions you’re not answering create huge holes which would trouble anyone sincerely pursuing spiritual truth in Christ.
For us to be alive in Christ, our old self has to die.
“Now we see the glorious wisdom of God’s atoning sacrifice of His Son. One time. On the cross. Or Christ died for nothing.”
Not as you’ve laid out your beliefs about Jesus’ sacrifice. You’ve said you reject most of the Bible, which is where we learn all about Jesus and His sacrifice. The Bible is God’s Word, Jesus Himself. Would you deny that you just accept Christ on your own terms and won’t allow Him to change you and don’t see any need for yourself to be changed by Him? And your claim that things are as you claim they are, and most of the Bible should be discarded, or “Christ died for nothing” is in error.
I am pleased to see you thinking.God did not tell us to leave our brains in the institutional professional “ church”!parking lot !!God blessed you with a brain!! Thanks for that.
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