Oh; I see...
Posted on 04/17/2018 8:56:07 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Have you been burned by a false prophecy? Did you lose your faith when a promised healing never came? Have you had it with flaky teaching in the name of "new revelation"? If so, you are not alone. There are more Charismatic casualties than many of us would care to admit.
But let me start here with an honest confession. My own experience in Pentecostal-Charismatic circles has been far more positive than negative. I have worked with the same leadership team for more than 20 years. I have had the privilege of serving with men and women of integrity all around the world – I'm talking about Pentecostal-Charismatic leaders around the globe.
I was saved in a Pentecostal church in 1971 and transformed by an outpouring of the Spirit in 1982. I was on the front lines of the Brownsville Revival from 1996-2000, and grads from our ministry school are bearing amazing fruit around the world. And while I have seen my share of scandals and false prophecies and leadership abuses and weirdness, it has been the exception far more than the rule.
Sadly, for many others, the opposite has proved true. For them, there is little or nothing good in the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement. They have been hurt or confused or abused, causing some to reject the move of the Spirit today and causing others to lose their faith entirely. My heart breaks over all these Charismatic casualties, and it is high time that we set our house in order.
I recently read a book critiquing the movement, and in my opinion, it was totally over the top in its criticisms.
Putting aside the scriptural errors I found in the book, it painted a terribly caricatured picture, one that was so exaggerated it was hardly recognizable to me. Yet as I read reviews to the book posted by readers, I saw that many of them were adding their hearty Amen. The picture it painted was all too familiar to them.
I'm aware, of course, that every church (or ministry or denomination or leader) has its critics. You can find horror stories everywhere, and if a church or ministry is big enough, you can find lots of negative reports from those who were allegedly burned by that church or ministry. But when you hear the same story over and over again from people from varied backgrounds, you know that something, somewhere is wrong.
When it comes to the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement, there is no shortage of amazing stories of what the Lord is doing in virtually every nation on the planet. This is truly a stunning, Jesus-exalting, multi-generational work of the Holy Spirit. I see no way to deny that for a split second.
Even more importantly, based on Scripture, I find it indisputable that the gifts and power of the Spirit are to continue in operation until Jesus returns.
But that doesn't minimize the damage that has been done in the name of the Spirit, and there are all too many casualties because of unchecked abuses. Out of love for the Lord and love for His people, we need to step higher.
Although my new book, "Playing with Holy Fire", just came out a few days ago, I'm already seeing a pattern in the reviews being posted by readers.
One reader wrote, "Dr. Michael Brown's very timely and balanced work really addressed where I am right now: disillusioned and heartbroken over the abuses of the contemporary church (this goes beyond the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement, though it is centered there). Furthermore, he encouraged my heart, showing me that I am not alone, and providing a Biblical way forward."
Another commented on Facebook that reading the book was bringing them healing from the negative experiences they had in our circles. Still another wrote, "As a former cessationist who was a cessationist BECAUSE of the abuse I saw happening in exercising the Holy Spirit's gifts, it concerns me too. Both because these abuses keep a very large section of the church away from desiring and pursuing something God wants them to have, but also because it harms our testimonies among unbelievers. This book will definitely be going to the top of my reading list!"
Other pastors and leaders are saying, "At last! These abuses needed to be addressed."
So, while I rejoice in what the Spirit is doing around the world, I grieve over the many who have been hurt and disillusioned because of human error and human sin and human carelessness. Truly, we have been given much by the Lord. And that means that much will be required of us.
May we walk worthy of the Holy Spirit's high calling. And may the name of Jesus be exalted, not tarnished, by our lives and ministries as Pentecostal and Charismatic believers.
The stakes are way too high to play games.
The Holy Spirit through Luke, then told us what those languages were by listing them, which basically precludes that which is being uttered by most charismatics as being the gift of tongues the the Holy Spirit poured out on the day of Pentecost.
A helper word the translators felt necessary to give the full sense that the translation should impart to the English reader that the Greek phrase indicates. The translators cast the word in italics so the reader could know that it was deliberately added, and if one feels it unnecessary, just strike it out. The word is not embroidery.
On the other hand, the translator using the word "observe" for the Greek tereoh could be replaced with the phrase "keep watchfully secure" thus removing some of the ambiguity of "observe" in which case nothing should or would be italicized, and nothing of the implicit sense changed.
But this is not the point. What is not to be added to, diminished, changed, or embroidered is the Greek text itself, which has been done thousands of times by the supposedly "scholarly" critics in their manufacture of a synthetic text presented in 1891, but never before seen by human eyes other than theirs.
The Mormons; with their record keeping; make it easy.
I've yet to find ANY that will denounced the following concepts, ideas and teachings.
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses , vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).
We need an APP that will listen to podcasts and create a transcript!
I’ve got less and less time to search for needles in haystacks, one straw at a time!
Process; yes; but CONTENT??
I’d be a bit more blunt than that!
I think we know what knowledge OSTEEN has about Mormonism!
Oh??
...you merely repeat chrstian claims.
Ok; we just read YOUR claim; now DO it!
What we Christians will use to cook our MEAT on the grill in the summertime.
Invite all the Mormons (the 'good' ones; that is) you want, and you'll NOT need to lay in any extra steaks!
Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
(D&C 89:12–13)
Hasn't had much luck with the white horse or the white House; either!!
...the presidential campaign of Mormon Church founder Joseph Smith in 1844: “Challenging Democrat James Polk and Whig Henry Clay, Smith prophesied that if the U.S. Congress did not accede to his demands that ‘they shall be broken up as a government and God shall damn them.’
Smith viewed capturing the presidency as part of the mission of the church.
Millennial Star, Vol. 22, No. 29, (July 21, 1860), pg. 455;
“I prophesied by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government
and God shall damn them, and there shall be nothing left of them – not even a grease spot!“.
We have to ask well catechized Catholics for this answer.
Only THEY know why His mom keeps coming to Earth to edify the faithful and give new instructions.
Au contraire, mon ami!!
MORMON
ATTITUDES OF SUPERIORITY
1. I’m Superior; I have a special gift of the holy Ghost -- you don’t!
2. I’m Superior; I have God’s true priesthood power -- you don’t!
3. I’m Superior; I can go in God’s secret Temple -- you can’t!
4. I’m Superior; I’ve been Endowed with special Gifts and Knowledge -- you’re just normal!
5. I’m Superior; I’ll have my family with me in heaven -- you’ll be with strangers!
6. I’m Superior; I’m becoming a God -- you aren’t!
7. I’m Superior; My women know their place as servants of man and yours don’t.
8. I’m Superior; YOUR creeds are wrong because they come from man - mine comes from God (you can find each one printed in our Scriptures).
9. I’m Superior; I don’t HAVE a creed - I’ve got 13 Articles of Faith.
10. I'm Superior; I have 4 "Bibles"-- the standard works (5 if you count the JST) -- you've only got one: in as far as it is translated correctly.
11. I’m Superior; I can lie with impunity about such things as church membership, church growth, church doctrine, church history, church influence, etc. — -- You can’t.
12. I’m Superior; I am right (everybody knows) when I say 'evangelical' Christians are lunatics -- -- You’re a hideous narrow-minded bigot, who is persecuting me by practicing discrimination by saying I'm not a Christian.
13. I'm Superior; I have a testimony about a prophet -- you don't.
14. I'm Superior; I have a Scripture-producing Amos 3:7 prophet -- you don't
15. I’m Superior; I have a Living Prophet who talks to god every day -- you have a dim-witted hireling of Satan who only talks to himself.
16. I'm Superior; I have my calling & election made sure -- you don't.
17. I’m Superior; I have magic underwear to protect me from the bogey man -- you don’t.
18. I’m Superior; I have secret clasps and grips to give the angel so I get admitted to the celestial kingdom -- you don’t ;so you can’t.
19. I'm Superior; I know secret handshake codes for afterlife entrances-- you don't.
20. I’m Superior; I will see Joseph Smith setting on the right hand of GOD, when I get to Mormon heaven, and he will recognize me and judge me favorably -- You’re on your own; when you get to wherever you’re going!
21. I’m Superior; I’m going to hie to Kolob -- you’re going to who knows where.
22. I’m Superior; I get to have a harem and act like a celestial stud for time and all eternity -- you don’t.
23. I’m Superior; I have sun stones, moon stones, sky stones, cloud stones, Saturn stones, and the evil eye of Osirus guarding my temple -- You have nothing but a stupid cross.
24. I’m Superior; My church has billions in assets stashed away -- yours has taken a stupid vow of poverty.
25. I'm Superior; Last - we have the power to keep a whole race out of our priesthood if we wanted to reinsert our 148-year legacy (we ARE still keeping an entire GENDER at bay!)26. I'm superior; I have the "higher law" -- everyone else "lives under the "lesser law' because I say so...(over and over).
Revision 46.5
Semi-Official creed of the EXclusive club of Freeper Flying Inmans.
All rights liable to be abused.
JESUS: Hey Smith! Remember that boast you made about doing more than even I had done to hold the 'church' together?
JOSEPH SMITH: Where am I?
JESUS: Don't you remember? A few seconds ago you were in that jail.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah; but where am I NOW?
JESUS: Don't you remember? Does bang - bang ring a bell?
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah - that crummy gun I had was about USELESS!
JESUS: I hope you left instructions on how to hold your church together.
JOSEPH SMITH: Dang! I knew there was SOMETHING I was forgetting!
JESUS: Looks like there's a power struggle going on down there.
JOSEPH SMITH: Yeah; there was always SOMEone who wanted the power that I held - especially over the LADIES - wink wink.
JESUS: No need to worry about that now; remember what my friend Matthew wrote down?
JOSEPH SMITH: This? “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)
JESUS: That's it.
JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.
JESUS: Nah - it was right.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh well; it was fun while it lasted. My buds will still get it on with the girls.
JESUS: Uh; I'm sorry; in just a few more years; your followers will cavein to the United States government and abandon the 'Eternal Covenant' that you came up with.
JOSEPH SMITH: ME!? YOU are the one that told me to do that!
JESUS: Sorry; but you must have mistranslated what I told you. What part of Do NOT commit ADULTERY did you not understand?
JOSEPH SMITH: mumble....
JESUS: What did you say?
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, nothing.
JESUS: Well; it was interesting talking to you; but now I must get back to perparing a place for those who believe in Me.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, yeah; the Celestial Kingdom.
JESUS: No...
JOSEPH SMITH: The Telestial one?
JESUS: Nope.
JOSEPH SMITH: SUREly not the TERRESTRIAL one!!
JESUS: Nope. Didn't you read that the mind of man had NOT conceived of it? Paul wrote it down in 1 Corinthians 2:9.
JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.
JESUS: No; it wasn't.
JOSEPH SMITH: You SURE?
JESUS: Yes. Now I must be going: what did you say your name was again?
JOSEPH SMITH: Joseph Smith.
JESUS: Hmmmm. According to my Heavenly FAITHbook, you didn't sign in as one of my friends - sorry, I never knew you.
JOSEPH SMITH: But....
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
The Word of God says "cloven tongues like as of fire" fell upon "each of them" that were waiting there that Day.
Which means...
Peter.
Are you presuming Peter was somehow standing off to the side, absenting himself from this miracle of miracles, on this awaited and divinely appointed Day?
The Bible says the "cloven tongue" fell on ALL of them, and they were filled with the Holy Spirit and ALL of them began speaking in miraculous tongues...
... but you say this didn't happen to Peter?
That Peter was sitting off to one side, pouting in the corner, covering his head with his hands, shaking his head "No!" to the Lord and His Holy Spirit?
Or are you saying that this miraculous REVERSAL OF THE MIRACLE OF THE TOWER OF BABEL, in a tremendous sign of the power of our Holy God, somehow skipped over Peter because... he was above it all, or didn't want or need to experience it?
What are you saying?
Are you saying this same Peter who saw Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration, somehow was passed over on Pentecost and didn't speak in tongues together with EVERYONE ELSE waiting there that day?
Oh, so it happened to "all".
To "each of them",
but you say it didn't happen to Peter?
Mary was there with them on that tremendous Day, as well. Are you saying the "tongues of fire" missed her and she didn't also speak in tongues?
After Peter preached at Cornelius's house, the Spirit fell and all of the household spoke in tongues, but you would say Peter couldn't sermonize on what the gift of tongues is all about to these Gentiles, because he didn't have the gift himself?
Are you presuming to discredit this miracle, where God reversed His confusion of tongues at the Tower of Babel, in a sign of His awesome power at Pentecost?
Despite your accusations that I am in error about Peter speaking in tongues, Peter was with the other Disciples in the upper room when the tongues of fire fell and when they all spoke in miraculous tongues, in a language that all could understand supernaturally... which is why he defended the accusation that they were "drunk".
The fact Peter said "they" only meant that he was now addressing them in Hebrew or Aramaic while previously he was there with them, together and "of one accord" when they all spoke in miraculous tongues.
And what happened at the Tower of Babel is the Old Testament confirmation about speaking in tongues in the New Testament: God has power over language and how we speak.
He is the Word. He is the master linguist. Pentecost is a reversal of Babel. How do you know this wasn't the first original language that all men spoke and understood?
At Pentecost they were speaking in a language that people of different nationalities could all understand at the same time.
And there would be no accusation against Peter and the others being "drunk" if the miracle had to do with people's hearing.
Just as it was at the Tower of Babel, it was about how God could change our speech. If God can make a Donkey speak, God can give one language that everyone can understand, regardless of nationality!
Peter likewise miraculously spoke in a language that all could understand at the same time, a miraculous, heaven-created tongue.
And then Peter explains the miracle by saying that this is that which the Prophet Joel prophesied, that God would pour out His Spirit on all mankind.
And then, of course, Paul later discusses how the gift of tongues is a sign for the unbeliever.
Just EXACTLY as happened that day when Peter spoke to the crowd, who were so impressed by this miracle of the disciples speaking in one language that all could understand, that OVER THREE THOUSAND WERE ADDED TO THEIR NUMBER THAT DAY.
They knew that the miracle was not in their hearing, it was in the disciples' speaking.
This was a miracle of the first order, the powerful entrance of the pouring out of the Spirit on all mankind, in an absolute sign of God's power over language going back to the Tower of Babel.
What's more difficult for God? To have a donkey speak or to give people a language that everyone understands?
When Jesus comes back at the Second Coming, it is said that "every eye shall see Him". If He speaks, wouldn't He speak in a language that everyone will understand at the same time?
Sheesh. Now go be a good Berean and marvel at the Awesomeness of our God.
Oh; I see...
Not only was the dude a fruitcake, but a lying one too. What a chump. Oh yes, he was that too. 😁😂
Like I said, simply because you disagree with the Bible by saying modern small “p” prophecy is not for the church today, and simply because you disagree with the Word by saying tongues are not for the church today, doesn’t make it so.
Yawn.
That is so sad.
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