Yet when Paul outlined the qualifications for the leaders of the church they were for men. Women were not included in the list.
“Look at Aimee Semple McPherson. What about Kathryn Kuhlman? How about Marilyn Hickey and Joyce Meyer? “
Yea. Look at ‘em. A bunch of fruitcakes.
The problem wasn’t that women aren’t qualified. The problem is that men need to step up and take those positions. Too many men are quite content to let women do everything.
‘There are too many examples in Scripture of women serving in leadership or other key roles for men to deny women a seat at the leadership table.’
Actually there are NO examples in scripture of women leading. Deborah went to battle with Barak, but just sat there as an observer.
As for the list of church women in modernity who have led or are leading, the world is not blessed by them. They have introduced false teaching or are awful examples of excess and peddling the gospel.
Adam failed to teach Eve or she would have known better. Not much different today.
Charismatic theology has been infiltrated with this notion that the Spirit's work in the life of a person dictates what role they should take in the local church ... thus nullifying the Word of God.
Paul says a woman should not teach or have authority over a man ... the pastor's primary responsibility is to do both of those. He does not appeal to cultural factors for justification of this doctrine ... but to the created order. Man created first, then woman ... woman was deceived, the man was not.
Honestly ... the woman should concentrate on their God given role to teach the younger women ... once every woman has been discipled to a mature believer, and they get an A in loving their husbands ... then we can talk about a promotion.
I stand with John Piper, a giant.
What I never understand is why the Church always seems to want to conform to this world and why they constantly seek to closely contour pop culture.
Of course the church must be relevant, but I cannot tell you how many churches I have attended where there have been “jokes” about how women are superior to men, followed by the hizzahs from women and the nervous chuckles from men. Why? Why say such things to senselessly demoralize the patriarchy? Why? Because it follows popular culture and in my opinion that is wrong biblically and denies the natural ordering by God.
Women are in no manner inferior to men, as all are created in the image of God, but God has established a system set up for our own good, not to harm or to deny any.
John Piper is spot on.
I just left our previous church over this exact issue when they hired a woman Pastor. Pastor/Bishop/Elder is an exact term and position in the Bible with qualifications listed in at least two different places clearly that it is a man. Their argument is not with me, not with “current times are different”, not with “men are not doing the work”, etc. Their argument is with God and his word. I’ll take God every time. This is not anti-women. They can do any job in the world (including President) except for only 2 jobs (pastor and deacon). Those are the only 2 jobs in the whole world where God explicitly says it should be a man. I have no issue with a church hiring a Woman “Director” or any other term. But when given the term “Pastor” and/or preaches from the pulpit they have crossed the line.
LOL! These women are part of her argument FOR females in ministry?
Scripture is clear on this point. Period.
Piper is right....
...I fully support Reformed Theology
But what do we do, then, with Deborah, a prophetess and a judge who led Israel into victorious battle when a man would not take charge? What about Anna the prophetess? What about Priscilla, who traveled in ministry with her husband?
- - - - -
Well, let’s look at them:
Deborah: Lady Judges are OK but rare. There are two women in this story, Judges 4. Deborah leads the forces that cause Sisera to run in hide in Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite’s tent, where she puts a tent nail through his temples. Sisera must have really upset YHWH!
Anna the prophetess: She was just that, a prophetess. A prophet is not a teacher.
Priscilla: She is the archetypal “Preacher’s Wife”!
When women rule over the people, IT’S A CURSE!!
ISA3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
God. KING JAMES BIBLE TOUCH - KJV (Kindle Locations 27852-27854). Kindle Edition.
I have mixed feelings about it, but on the whole, I tend to side with Piper. There are probably some women who would be great pastors or spiritual leaders. But I hear too often about women pastors (or would-be priests) who want to change everything about Christianity, such as referring to God as both male & female, or simply as a “Mother”, etc., that I just don’t think it is a good idea.
I think I’ll take God’s Word.......
1 Tim. 2:12
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
“Yes, 1 Timothy 2:12-13 says women should not teach or assume authority over a man.”
Okay, Jennifer, let’s find out WHY:
For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. (13-15)
Fundamental issue. In 2000+ years, what has changed? Nada, zero, zip. The Planet of Women has destroyed everything in its path...because FEELINGS! Paul—a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth—was right.
There are too many examples of prostitution in the Bible as well, but I do not think that practice is endorsed.
Using OT for examples of church function and order is a non-starter for anyone who seriously studies scripture. The church, the body of Christ, is a spiritual entity that abandons the external formalities of Judaism......e.g., the church does not have those selected as priests due to blood lineage, and all believers are now priests.
There is a principle however that if God cannot find a man to do His work, He will find a woman to do it.
The role of women and ministry is affected though by order and function....and the simple principle is that a woman is not to have authority over a man, in any way shape or form. The order is clear in I Corin. 11. It is not a matter of superiority - women are more often spiritual than men.
Are men to bear children? No - it’s simply a matter of function. Can women impregnate men? No - it’s simply a matter of function.
It’s the same in the church. Women are not to function in government or authority. They CAN function in all other areas.
Are some women gifted as pastors? YES! Clearly this is so and none can deny it. But their pastoring is not over men, only over other women.
Are some women gifted as teachers? YES! Clearly this is also so. But they do not teach men. At least not directly. Can men receive from their ministry? YES! Watchman Nee and others knew the power, gift and calling of Margaret Barber - but to not be “under” her ministry, they would listen to her ministry outside the building where she would teach.
There are many ways gifted women can minister in the body of Christ without violating God’s ordained order but for this age only. I personally believe in eternity as there will be no sex, many “former” women will be in authority over “former” men. - having had a closer walk with the Lord in this life than many men. The order will be different then.
How’s that for heresy?
But for this life, God’s order is as described in I Corin 6, 7, 11 and Timothy.
Here’s one relevant passage from ACTS 18:24-26:
“Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the scriptures. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.” Acts 18:24-26 (NASB, underline added)
In Acts 18:24-26, Luke, the author of Acts, introduces his readers to Apollos. Apollos was a Jewish Christian from Alexandria. Alexandria was a renowned centre of learning in the ancient world and famous for its impressive and extensive library.
Apollos is described by Luke literally as a “man of words”. This indicates Apollos was well-read, well-educated, and trained in rhetoric. Luke portrays him as both an eloquent orator and as someone with a thorough (literally, “powerful”) understanding of the Hebrew scriptures. Apollos would go on to become an outstanding minister of the gospel (1 Cor. 1:12; 3:4-6, 21-22; 4:6, 9).
Despite Apollos’ notable credentials, something was lacking in his teaching. He was ignorant of Christian baptism. Priscilla and Aquila recognised this lack and, as leaders of the local church, they took Apollos aside, possibly into their home,[6] and explained to him “the Way of God”, that is, theology, more accurately.
The verb “explain” is plural in the Greek indicating that both Priscilla and Aquila were involved.
However, the fact that Priscilla’s name is listed FIRST, before her husband’s in Acts 18:26, seems to indicate that Priscilla was the more active one in giving the explanation.
Stupid article takes the quote out of context.
The question Piper was answering was this one: “Should women be hired as seminary professors?”
His full answer explains that women should not be teaching future pastors how to do pastoring, since the women themselves are biblically exempt from become pastors themselves.
Do I agree with Piper? Not necessarily. But this article is building a straw man argument, based on twisting Piper’s words.
“But what do we do, then, with Deborah, a prophetess and a judge who led Israel into victorious battle when a man would not take charge? “
Well, God also used Balaam’s ass to help persuade him to act in obedience. Does this mean that talking donkeys are the norm? No, not in this life anyway.
IOW - there are exceptions - and their are rules.
The Bible says that we are all made in His image, male and female. Therefore I don’t in theory have a problem with a woman being a pastor.
As a practical matter though, in all of the Protestant churches who have gone down this road the only women who seemed to want the job were extreme whacked-out Liberal Feminists and Lesbians.