Posted on 01/26/2018 7:15:49 AM PST by SeekAndFind
"If it is unbiblical to have women as pastors, how can it be biblical to have women who function in formal teaching and mentoring capacities..."
Here we go again. Theologian John Piper stirred up a hornet's nest by arguing women are not to teach men. Piper points to 1 Timothy 2:12 that churches should be led by a team of spiritual, humble, biblically qualified men.
"If it is unbiblical to have women as pastors, how can it be biblical to have women who function in formal teaching and mentoring capacities to train and fit pastors for the very calling from which the mentors themselves are excluded?" Piper writes.
Yes, 1 Timothy 2:12-13 says women should not teach or assume authority over a man. Others point to 1 Timothy 3, which lists the qualifications for bishops and deacons as reasons not to allow women in ministry. But what do we do, then, with Deborah, a prophetess and a judge who led Israel into victorious battle when a man would not take charge? What about Anna the prophetess? What about Priscilla, who traveled in ministry with her husband?
Look at Aimee Semple McPherson. What about Kathryn Kuhlman? How about Marilyn Hickey and Joyce Meyer? All of these women have been a blessing to the body of Christ, and they have all faced persecution from people who don't agree that they should speak and teach. Jesus certainly didn't prevent women from entering ministry so I am unsure as to why there is so much resistance in some camps within the modern church.
I would like to end the heated debate over women in ministry. There are too many examples in Scripture of women serving in leadership or other key roles for men to deny women a seat at the leadership table. That said, I'm not calling for affirmative action here. Church roles should be assigned by the Holy Spirit. That means leadership needs to pray and fast without preconceived notions—and without bias toward women—before they appoint people to positions.
Paul wrote, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for the common good. To one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom, to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But that one and very same Spirit works all these, dividing to each one individually as He will" (1 Cor. 12:7-11).
Paul didn't say women can't operate in spiritual gifts and I don't believe Paul intended for women to be denied opportunities to serve in various ministries, even leadership positions, within the church. I think locking women out of ministry can actually work against God at times. God is the one who calls people into ministry—men and women. If we were all obedient to the Holy Spirit in this matter, there would be much less strife and much more effectiveness in ministry for the glory of God.
It's going to take all of us laboring together to turn around our nation. Can we quit attacking women who are trying to do what God has called them to do?
-- Jennifer LeClaire former editor of Charisma magazine, senior leader of Awakening House of Prayer in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, founder of the Ignite Network and founder of the Awakening Blaze prayer movement. She is author of over 25 books.
Using OT for examples of church function and order is a non-starter for anyone who seriously studies scripture. The church, the body of Christ, is a spiritual entity that abandons the external formalities of Judaism......e.g., the church does not have those selected as priests due to blood lineage, and all believers are now priests.
There is a principle however that if God cannot find a man to do His work, He will find a woman to do it.
The role of women and ministry is affected though by order and function....and the simple principle is that a woman is not to have authority over a man, in any way shape or form. The order is clear in I Corin. 11. It is not a matter of superiority - women are more often spiritual than men.
Are men to bear children? No - it’s simply a matter of function. Can women impregnate men? No - it’s simply a matter of function.
It’s the same in the church. Women are not to function in government or authority. They CAN function in all other areas.
Are some women gifted as pastors? YES! Clearly this is so and none can deny it. But their pastoring is not over men, only over other women.
Are some women gifted as teachers? YES! Clearly this is also so. But they do not teach men. At least not directly. Can men receive from their ministry? YES! Watchman Nee and others knew the power, gift and calling of Margaret Barber - but to not be “under” her ministry, they would listen to her ministry outside the building where she would teach.
There are many ways gifted women can minister in the body of Christ without violating God’s ordained order but for this age only. I personally believe in eternity as there will be no sex, many “former” women will be in authority over “former” men. - having had a closer walk with the Lord in this life than many men. The order will be different then.
How’s that for heresy?
But for this life, God’s order is as described in I Corin 6, 7, 11 and Timothy.
I don’t think women are qualified.
you said “Yea. Look at ‘em. A bunch of fruitcakes.”
I sort of agree, but that is a harsh and unfair way to characterize fruitcakes.
But never mind the example of their lives. The Bible is extremely clear that certain roles are for Christian men who meet certain qualifications.
So one can just be silly and say, “That’s not fair.” In which case I would refer you to Eve’s line of thinking/behaving back in Genesis.
In conclusion, God’s word means what it says, even if someone else says otherwise.
Here’s one relevant passage from ACTS 18:24-26:
“Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the scriptures. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.” Acts 18:24-26 (NASB, underline added)
In Acts 18:24-26, Luke, the author of Acts, introduces his readers to Apollos. Apollos was a Jewish Christian from Alexandria. Alexandria was a renowned centre of learning in the ancient world and famous for its impressive and extensive library.
Apollos is described by Luke literally as a “man of words”. This indicates Apollos was well-read, well-educated, and trained in rhetoric. Luke portrays him as both an eloquent orator and as someone with a thorough (literally, “powerful”) understanding of the Hebrew scriptures. Apollos would go on to become an outstanding minister of the gospel (1 Cor. 1:12; 3:4-6, 21-22; 4:6, 9).
Despite Apollos’ notable credentials, something was lacking in his teaching. He was ignorant of Christian baptism. Priscilla and Aquila recognised this lack and, as leaders of the local church, they took Apollos aside, possibly into their home,[6] and explained to him “the Way of God”, that is, theology, more accurately.
The verb “explain” is plural in the Greek indicating that both Priscilla and Aquila were involved.
However, the fact that Priscilla’s name is listed FIRST, before her husband’s in Acts 18:26, seems to indicate that Priscilla was the more active one in giving the explanation.
Not only did he fail to teach her - HE SUBMITTED TO HER LEADERSHIP IN TAKING THE FRUIT!
This was part of his sin that is never discussed.
Another part not mentioned is at the root of his sin: HE PREFERRED EVE TO GOD! He was so blown away by her he rejected God and His ONE REVEALED COMMANDMENT so he would not be rejected by Eve!!!
Qualified? Gifting is the only requirement.
And women are clearly gifted as pastors, teachers, prophetesses.
A totally erroneous view of the role of pastor dominates in churches today. Pastor is a gift of shepherding (in Greek there is only the word shepherd - same in all Spanish and Latin-based Bibles). In the Bible a pastor is a gifting, and the person may - or may not - also be put in a position of authority.
Today’s role of pastor is not found anywhere in the NT. No man has the title or position “Pastor” in the NT, and it is not a position. It is a gift. The Brethren of England and Watchman Nee’s followers in China had a fairly “true-to-scripture” view of pastor. You cannot find one man in the whole NT called a pastor. Many insert and say James was one - but scripture never says that. In fact, the noun “poimen” is only found once in the whole NT - Eph. 4:11 - and there it is plural, not singular.
The verb form of the word is found several times, always associated with the function and duty of the elder.
A woman is never in authority over men. See my previous post #21.
I can think of several in our church who would be excellent spiritual leaders. However, the reason that they would be excellent spiritual leaders is that each is totally committed to Scripture so they would never attempt to take leadership. They are a great support for their husbands, several of whom are in leadership position.
Gen. 3:6
Adam was WITH Eve.
That being said I Tim does say what it says.
If feelings are the reason for a calling we are displacing scripture.
What about a homosexual who feels ‘led’ to minister??
1 Timothy 2:12 (KJV)
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Adam told her. Her response to the serpent shows that she knew. The first politician simply fooled her.
He told her. Her reply to the serpent testifies of it.
She fell for the lie. Adam was in love with his wife. The risk of death didn’t seem as horrible as living without her.
Christ loved the church, and died for it.
Stupid article takes the quote out of context.
The question Piper was answering was this one: “Should women be hired as seminary professors?”
His full answer explains that women should not be teaching future pastors how to do pastoring, since the women themselves are biblically exempt from become pastors themselves.
Do I agree with Piper? Not necessarily. But this article is building a straw man argument, based on twisting Piper’s words.
“But what do we do, then, with Deborah, a prophetess and a judge who led Israel into victorious battle when a man would not take charge? “
Well, God also used Balaam’s ass to help persuade him to act in obedience. Does this mean that talking donkeys are the norm? No, not in this life anyway.
IOW - there are exceptions - and their are rules.
Those who provide leadership to the local church are the elders or “overseers”. In a typical baptist church, that person is called the pastor. There may be more than one.
“For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.” - Titus
Not much wiggle room there.
Same with this:
“But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” - 1 Tim 2
Women certainly CAN teach other women. But they are not to be teaching men. And I’ve seen NOTHING in the modern church to indicate Paul was wrong.
**However, the fact that Priscilla’s name is listed FIRST, before her husband’s in Acts 18:26, seems to indicate that Priscilla was the more active one in giving the explanation.**
That’s is speculation. No more, no less. They were a husband and wife team. There are no examples of one or the other speaking.
RE: His full answer explains that women should not be teaching future pastors how to do pastoring, since the women themselves are biblically exempt from become pastors themselves.
OK, how about Women teaching future Pastors about OTHER subjects?
Theology, Biblical Counselling, Hermeneutics, Apologetics but not pastoring?
RE: They were a husband and wife team. There are no examples of one or the other speaking.
Again, The verb “explain” is PLURAL in the Greek indicating that BOTH Priscilla and Aquila were involved in teaching Apollos.
Not sure. I know that for me, I have a lot to learn from others, both male and female. So I personally don’t have a problem allowing women to teach. I think the humble man would be happy to learn from a woman.
“children are their oppressors, and women rule over them”
Sounds like the Democrat party.
Re post 34; Mr Rogers
The letter of advice to Titus does, as you write “leave little wiggle room”.
Consider the qualifications and how many men as deacons, elders, priests, ministers, etc. live up to them.
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