Posted on 09/19/2017 1:03:41 PM PDT by SubMareener
This is a summary of nine date intervals all pointing to events around the Tribulation Period, or Daniel's 70th Week.
“The scripture you cited contradicts your assertion”
Nope.
“It is only when we see the culmination of these signs coming to pass that Christ’s return is imminent; ‘Luke 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.’”
There is no contradiction here. There is a series of signs before Christ’s return and the Day of the Lord. The early signs include antichrist deception, wars, famine, and disease. Jesus did not say His return would be imminent and to look up then. He said the opposite:
Luke 21:9
But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.
ALL 6 signs must take place BEFORE Christ returns, and the “end” comes. So He says to look up for His imminent return when the signs come to pass, not when they are just getting started. There have been many wars, famines, and plagues down through history. None of them indicated that the Lord’s return was imminent. But when we see the other signs follow these things in sequence, and the revealing of the antichrist in particular, we know His return is about to happen. No contradiction here.
“the passage was from Luke and given during the Temple discourse, not the Mount of Olives discourse”
Nope.
The Olivet Discourse is the teaching of Christ found in the Synoptic Gospels in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Jesus was going back and forth between the Temple in the day and the Mount of Olives at night because the Jewish leaders had basically issued a warrant for His arrest.
Luke 21:37-38
And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet. Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.
By comparing the three passages, we can see clearly that Jesus was saying these words after leaving the temple and returning to the Mount of Olives.
Matthew 24:3
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately...
Mark 13:3
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple...
Luke leaves out that part of the passage took place in the Treasury inside of the temple, part was outside of the temple, and part was across from the temple on the Mount of Olives. Most of the prophetic teaching was not done so publicly in the temple but privately on the mountain.
Today, the walking distance between the mountain and the temple mount is a little over a mile because it is not a straight shot. It was probably about a mile when the Olivet Discourse took place.
What I quoted is part of the Olivet Discourse. You should research a little more carefully before attempting to correct something that isn’t incorrect to begin with.
Perhaps a netter word than ‘culmination’ would help. Do you know what that word means?
The Luke Discourse is not the same as the Matthew and Mark citations from the Mount of Olives. A more careful comparison would help, if you are open to learning not just unlearning.
“Perhaps a netter word than ‘culmination’ would help.”
Christ taught that His return would come AFTER all these things. Not at the beginning. Not in the middle. At the end.
So He does not say to look up to see His return when we see wars and rumors of wars.
The signs are multiple. It is not one single sign. And it is when these multiple signs “come to pass” as opposed to just getting started.
There are 7 signs of the end of the world given by Christ in His Olivet Discourse. His return is the seventh and final sign. That means this series of events culminates with His return.
The first 6 signs are signs of His coming. These are specific and direct answers to the questions His disciples asked about the sign of His coming and of the end of the world.
“The Luke Discourse is not the same as the Matthew and Mark citations from the Mount of Olives.”
They are the same event told from the perspectives of different listeners.
Matthew 26:1-2
Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples, “You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.”
Mark 14:1
After two days it was the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take Him by trickery and put Him to death.
Luke 22:1
Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover.
So it is clear from the passages that the 3 chapters, though containing some slight variations in the details, are the same event at the same location.
I will grant you that the differences have significance. Some of the contents of this discourse are related to the destruction of the temple (which He prophesied outside of the temple and not at the Mount of Olives). But it is the culmination of these 6 signs together, in sequence, that indicate that His return is imminent.
“It’s what’s in a person’s heart, and *that* ‘tamid’ is in a person’t heart. Just check out the word lev (lamed bet), ‘heart’. The letters of the word spelled out are:
lamed mem dalet, bet yud tav.
The revealed letters are lamed bet which is lev; the concealed letters spell tamid.”
That’s very interesting. I did not know that.
“in Daniel is only where tamid is used as a stand alone definite noun, *the* tamid. The always/continual/perpetual [thing]. It is not used to modify any type of sacrifices or anything else. In all those other cases, the hei prefix is the grammar form for tamid being used as a modifier.”
We do the same in English. If you do a web search on the word “daily,” you will get a page full of links to news websites. A very long time ago “daily” became associated with news. Now there are news organizations that use the term as a noun just like Daniel does. We tend to think of “daily” as a noun referring to the news.
In the film business, it used to be common to call the daily, raw, unedited film takes, “dailies.” It was kind of a shorthand for a basic ingredient of the filmmaking process. Again, “daily” the adjective was being used as a noun.
The Jews in Daniel’s time (many years after the original use of the term in Numbers) came to think of the term as a general summary of the various daily sacrifices that were part of temple worship.
Hattamid is used 5 times in Daniel. Each time is connected to the sanctuary. And, according to 11:31, the abomination of desolation will take the place of hattamid. Jesus taught that this abomination, precisely the one that Daniel spoke of, would “stand” in the holy place.
So I agree with your point about the way Daniel uses the word. And it might be reasonable to examine its meaning to be sure assumptions we make about such passages are accurate. It is, however, unreasonable for someone to simply interject into the passage whatever idea they like or prefer for it to mean in order to fit into preconceived prophetic paradigms.
And that is what I was addressing. SubMareener simply asserts that the “daily” thing that is taken away is NOT the daily sacrifices of the third temple (at least in the particular passage he was citing in Daniel 8:11).
SubMareener: “So what is ‘the daily’ that will be ‘taken away’? Well, it is certainly not the daily sacrifices that the Jews will present in the Third Temple, because that is what the anti-Christ will do at the midpoint.”
But it is exactly the idea of the perpetual, daily sacrifice being taken away that connects the passages together and helps us make sense of them. There is no daily sacrifice today. In order for it to be taken away, it must first be restored. And while I would not be dogmatic about it, I think this may be connected to the ministry of Elijah who will “come and restore all things” according to Matthew 17:11.
A zillion prophecy gurus fall in lockstep with a "settled" premise [of a rebuilt Temple] and from there sell their various interpretations. I keep the popcorn popped. I perceive that it won't go down in a way most are anticipating. It will be interesting to say the least. And soon.
“It will make plain sense when it makes sense.”
Certainly there are a great many details that we will not understand until after the prophecies have been fulfilled.
John 13:19
Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He.
John 14:29
And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe.
John 16:1-4a
These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.
These verses underscore that prophecies are not a roadmap to tell us everything in detail so that we can understand ahead of time what is going to happen precisely and prepare specifically. They do help us to be prepared. But this preparation is primarily of the heart.
Prophecies remind us that God is in control. He is on His throne. He knows what He is doing. He is in charge, and we must recognize His place and our relationship to Him.
And our place is that of a bond-slave. Our place is to trust what He says and do what He tells us.
Whatever He does, nothing is taking Him by surprise. But we will certainly be surprised and amazed when we see it even though we are expecting it.
By becoming as familiar as possible with the scriptures we will best be able to recognize when these prophecies are being fulfilled and how to respond to what is happening around us.
The location for Luke's passage is the Temple. The Location for the Matthew and Mark telling is the path down and then up to the Mount of Olives and on the Mount of Olives. the persons to whom Jesus addresses the Two Discourses are different: the Mount of Olives Discourse being to the four Disciples, the Temple Discourse being to the throng of folks who would go to Temple to hear Him.
The temporal perspectives are different, also: the Temple Discourse was focused upon the imminent destruction of Jerusalem, the Olivet Discourse focused upon answering the question posed by the Disciple 'when will the end come'.
The major clues are the words 'after these things' and 'but before these things'.
The two 'listeners' being addressed are 'Israel' and The Church, the Body of Believers. The nation of Israel is cautioned to watch for the signs of His imminent return to the Earth, whereas The Church has been told that no signs foretell the day or hour of His coming for us. The moment of His coming for us to meet Him in the clouds can be even before I finish this post. The Coming to Earth is preceded by a list of signs and His setting foot upon the Earth is a culmination.
The Rapture is imminent. The setting foot upon the Earth is at least seven years away, depending upon how much more time God gives us to witness of His Salvation offered to those not yet saved. But there will come a moment, very soon, when the last member of His Body of Believers will happen and THEN He will do as He promised to His Disc iples in John 14.
It has been speculated that a vast array of Believers left Jerusalem prior to Vespasian/Titus Roman Legions destroying that city, because of the warning Prophecy Jesus gave in The Temple Discourse. We today think of 'nations' as the US, Russia, Germany, etc. In the time of Vespasian's campaign through Palestine on his way to Jerusalem, the word had a different context, tied to the people who were conquered by Israel as they took 'the Promised Land'.
The Body of Believers are told to be ready for at any moment Our Lord can come for us. The believers who will come to salvation during the Tribulation are told to watch for the signs of His return tot he Earth. The signs pointed to by Jesus are for the ones who will be under great distress during the Tribulation.
Meant to ping you also to the above.
“The location for Luke’s passage is the Temple. The Location for the Matthew and Mark telling is the path down and then up to the Mount of Olives and on the Mount of Olives. the persons to whom Jesus addresses the Two Discourses are different: the Mount of Olives Discourse being to the four Disciples, the Temple Discourse being to the throng of folks who would go to Temple to hear Him.”
You are making an assertion, apparently to support your particular eschatological view, but failed to offer any examples from the passages to support your assertion. It is an improper way to handle scripture (if you, I, or anyone does so), to start with a viewpoint and simply find ways to make various passages of scripture fit with our viewpoint. I am not accusing you of this, but simply stating that you must offer more than an assertion. You might indeed have an insight into a text that I or others do not, but you can not expect us to simply take your word for it.
I already established in my earlier post, and I think you do not disagree, that these passages reflect events of approximately the same timeframe. So let us compare the specific cases where the passages match in order to test your proposition:
Matthew 24:3
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Mark 13:3-4
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”
Luke 21:7
So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”
Here we have the same questions, posed by the same people - His disciples (four in particular). The first two passages indicate that these questions happened a little later, in response to what Jesus prophesied about the destruction of the temple. Notice also that they asked Him privately. Luke does not disclose this aspect of the questions either. It seems very apparent to me that their questions and His response to their questions occurred on the Mount of Olives.
Your assertion that the discourse in Matthew and Mark happened on “the path down and then up to the Mount of Olives and on the Mount of Olives” does not align with the verses I just presented. While it is certainly possible that Jesus taught His disciples and / or the throngs during this short journey, there is no indication of it in any of the passages that I can see. And your assertion seems to contradict the order of events as they are plainly listed in these passages. Are you asserting that the disciples asked these questions twice? Once at the temple and then again in private on the mountain?
I am having trouble following your line of reasoning because you are simply making an assertion of something that does not seem to be anywhere in the passages, and you give no supporting evidence or defense of your assertion. It seems you simply like this explanation because it fits within your eschatological framework. But, again, this is not the proper way to interpret the passage.
“The major clues are the words ‘after these things’ and ‘but before these things’.”
Can you be more specific? I found this:
Luke 21:12
But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
This does not seem to indicate anything different from the passages in Matthew and Mark other than that perhaps persecution should be considered normative. This persecution is clearly characteristic of what antichrist does, but it is also something that we see throughout the book of Acts.
Perhaps your studies involve delineating between the portions of these passages that concern the 70 A.D. destruction and those that have not yet been fulfilled. That could be an interesting analysis. But so far I do not see any substance to the position you are arguing for.
“The nation of Israel is cautioned to watch for the signs of His imminent return to the Earth, whereas The Church has been told that no signs foretell the day or hour of His coming for us.”
Where? Be specific? What passages? What verses? Freely ye have received, freely share.
“The moment of His coming for us to meet Him in the clouds can be even before I finish this post... The Rapture is imminent.”
You are simply asserting the idea of imminence rather than providing supporting evidence.
“But there will come a moment, very soon, when the last member of His Body of Believers will happen and THEN He will do as He promised to His Disciples in John 14.”
Let’s see:
John 14:2
In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jesus left. He ascended to Heaven and sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High. He told of a “place” He is preparing. This means that it was not prepared yet. Is it prepared now? What preparation is required? Is He making something new? Or is He preparing something already there? According to the passage, the places are already there. They just need to be prepared.
What needs to change or happen for our place in Heaven to be ready for occupation? Let me suggest that at least one thing has not happened yet, that will happen. Satan and his angels are going to be evicted by Michael and his angels.
Revelation 12:7-9
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Notice particular phrase in the above passage: “nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.” I will suggest that there is a limited amount of space in Heaven. Unlike hell, which is never full, God desires for Heaven to be filled. However, there is no room for Satan or any of his followers. They will be evicted.
Proverbs 27:20
Hell and Destruction are never full;
So the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Luke 14:23
Then the master said to the servant, “Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.”
I believe that in order for the raptured church to occupy her new heavenly home, Satan, the accuser, must first be evicted. While I am not claiming to have proved as much, I have provided some significant supporting evidence as to WHY I believe this to be the case.
“The Body of Believers are told to be ready for at any moment Our Lord can come for us.”
Where?
Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
But read the context. This is clearly in regard to His return AFTER the Great Tribulation:
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The thought continues in the subsequent verses. There is continuity. Verse 42 is not part of a separate sermon or discourse.
Many scriptures tells us both to watch and be ready, and also to persevere and wait patiently. These are not contradictory. And neither position is definitively proven by such passages. We can neither add meaning that is not there, nor take away meaning that is there. Saying we do not know when is not the same as saying it could happen at any moment or will be without preceding signs. The passage above proves this.
“The believers who will come to salvation during the Tribulation are told to watch for the signs of His return tot he Earth.”
Or they are believers who were already believers before the Tribulation began. Christ’s return will become imminent only when the 6 signs He told us would come, have come to pass. Before then there is no point in standing around looking up into the sky. But when they do happen, then we can start looking up. He will arrive at any moment, but only after the 6 signs of His return have been fulfilled.
Believe me, there is nothing that I want more than for Christ to return. There is nothing for me in this world. If He came today, that would be awesome. But He gave us the reason for His delay in returning. It is for more people to be saved. And I do know people who would not be saved if He returned today.
According to the pre-tribulational rapture position, if we have friends and loved ones who are not saved now, and Christ returns, they get another chance. But this is not consistent with scripture. When people reject the truth, God says He will send them strong delusion.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Every person needs to be right with God right now because no one knows how long they have before they die and give an account to God. On the other hand, we also do not know what we may have to endure before then either. We must have a mindset that is prepared to endure.
There is a great danger in advocating the certainty of a pre-tribulational rapture that is not promised to us in scripture. When this does not happen, and followers of Christ find that they must face the persecution of antichrist and all of the difficulties of the Great Tribulation, then they may be discouraged. Many may come to feel that God did not keep His promise. Many may feel they have missed out on the rapture. Only He did not promise to come before the Great Tribulation or the antichrist. He specifically describes His return as being after these things.
Christ will come for us just as He promised. And it will be darkest just before the dawn. I do not need to persuade anyone. The circumstances the final generation of New Testament believers find themselves encountering will speak for themselves. When followers of Christ see the antichrist defile the temple, proclaim himself to be God, and demand that everyone take the “mark of the beast,” they will know that Christ’s return was not before these things. Hopefully, many who disbelieve this message now will come to their senses then, and realize that they were misled. However, it would be better to understand this now.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.
To this teaching the Disciples addressed their question as the small group (Jesus and the inner three or four Disciples) looked back at the beauty of the Temple in the evening light.
Once upon the Mount of Olives, they were more direct, though they did not realize then that Jesus had referred to TWO DIFFERENT time periods and destruction of the Temple in two separate epochs. They thought they could be more direct by asking about the end of the Age, yet they did not yet realize the 'Age' was just opening, the Church/Ekklesia Age.
I will cite the Luke Discourse:
Luke 21:5 Now while some people were talking about the Temple—how it was decorated with beautiful stones and gifts dedicated to God—he said, 6 “As for these things that you see, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another that won’t be knocked down.”7 Then they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things take place, and what will be the sign that these things are about to take place?”
8 He said, “Be careful that you are not deceived, because many will come in my name and say, ‘I AM’ and, ‘The time has come.’ Don’t follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and revolutions, never be alarmed, because these sort of things must take place first, but the end won’t come right away.”
10 Then he went on to say to them, “Nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines, and plagues in various places, and there will be fearful events and awful signs from heaven.”
12 “But before all these things take place, people will arrest you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name’s sake. 13 It will give you an opportunity to testify. 14So purpose in your hearts not to prepare your defense ahead of time, 15 because I will give you the ability to speak, along with wisdom, that none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives, and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 You will be hated continuously by everyone because of my name. 18 And yet not a hair on your head will be lost. 19 By your endurance you will protect your lives.”
20 “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then understand that its devastation is approaching. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, those inside the city must leave it, and those in the countryside must not go into it, 22 because these are the days of vengeance when all that is written will be fulfilled.
23 “How terrible it will be for those women who are pregnant or who are nursing babies in those days!—because there will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be carried off as captives among all the nations [Here is a major clue as to which time period Jesus is referring in the majority of the Luke Discourse. Falling by the sword is precisely what more than a million had happen to them when Vespasian razed Jerusalem!], and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the unbelievers until the times of the unbelievers are fulfilled.”
Now we see how the Gisciples were clueless that there were TWO TIME epochs Jesus addressed. The Disciples assumed no doubt that the end of the Temple and Jerusalem would be 'The End'. Jesus left us the Matthew and Mark accounts so we could discern the differences.
Jesus ends the Temple Discourse, possibly during the walk over to the Mount of Olives, with the following in Luke 21: 25 “There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and there will be distress on earth among the nations that are confused by the roaring of the sea and its waves. 26People will faint from fear and apprehension because of the things that are to come on the inhabited world, because the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in a cloud’ with power and great glory. 28“Now when these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is approaching.”[This prophecy is precisely for Israel, the nation, not the Body of Believers. The clue is the parable of the fig tree, for Israel is the fig tree, as found in Isaiah and Jeremiah.]
Allow me to point to a major clue in Matthew 24:
1As Jesus left the Temple and was walking away, his disciples came up to him to point out to him the Temple buildings. 2But he told them, “You see all these things, don’t you? I tell all of you with certainty, there isn’t a single stone here that will be left standing on top of another. They will all be torn down.”[This tells us where the small group was when Jesus gave the direct prophecy of Jerusalem's destruction. This also gives us a huge clue as to why the Disciples were clueless of two separate epochs.]After the group was resting on the Mount of Olives, then came a Disciple asking a more pointed question, indicating they still did not get it, and perhaps Jesus did not want them to know too much, what with the coming persecutions they were to suffer.
With this passage we can discern that the Disciples asked regarding the Temple and Jerusalem, before they reached the Mount, because they try to asked more pointedly when Jesus is sitting on the Mount of Olives.]4 Jesus answered them, “See to it that no one deceives you, 5 because many will come in my name and say, ‘I’m the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many people. 6You’ll hear of wars and rumors of wars. See to it that you aren’t alarmed. These things must take place, but the end hasn’t come yet, 7because nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8But all these things are only the beginning of the birth pains.” [Birth pains of what? ... The Church Age.]
9 “Then they’ll hand you over to suffer and will kill you, and you’ll be hated by all the nations because of my name. 10 Then many people will fall away, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will appear and deceive many people, 12 and because lawlessness will increase, the love of many people will grow cold. 13 But the person who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”[ Here is yet another major clue: the Gospel of the coming Kingdom is what the 144000 are proclaiming during the Tribulation period! We are in the Age of Grace. The coming Kingdom Age will be hallmarked differently. Jesus tells you that AFTER the gospel of the Kingdom is preached in all nations THEN the end will come! The Rapture of the Church ends the Age of Grace for the Ekklesia, and the tribulation crushes out the fruit from those who did not receive the Grace of God in Christ without 'signs and wonders' as demanded by the seekers after signs exposed in John 6.]
During the Church Age we do not need or get signs of the imminent return of Jesus. Once the Rapture happens THEN folks will kno0w the first great sign of His setting foot upon the Earth to usher in The Kingdom Age. The signs are for those in the Tribulation period. Jesus lists what signs the Tribulation folks must look for:
Matthew 24:15 “So when you see the destructive desecration, mentioned by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place (let the reader take note), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Anyone who’s on the housetop must not come down to get what is in his house, 18and anyone who’s in the field must not turn back to get his coat. 19“How terrible it will be for women who are pregnant or who are nursing babies in those days! 20 Pray that it may not be in winter or on a Sabbath when you flee, 21 because at that time there will be great suffering, the kind that hasn’t happened from the beginning of the world until now and certainly won’t ever happen again. 22 If those days hadn’t been limited, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be limited. [The elect are not the Church, they are the elect who will go into the Kingdom Age and have families, etc. Note how Jesus refers to Messiah, the title Israelis would immediately identify.]
23 “At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here’s the Messiah!’ or ‘There he is!’, don’t believe it, 24 because false messiahs and false prophets will appear and display great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 Remember, I’ve told you this beforehand. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Look! He’s in the wilderness,’ don’t go out looking for him. And if they say, ‘Look! He’s in the storeroom,’ don’t believe it, 27 because just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there’s a corpse, there the vultures will gathered. 29“Immediately after the troubles of those days, 'The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven will be shaken loose.’
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all ‘the tribes of the land will mourn’ when they see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory. 31 He’ll send out his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they’ll gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another.”
22 If those days hadn’t been limited, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be limited.
Your first assumption was, “Here we have the same questions, posed by the same people ...” It is that assumption which I disagree with, since the wording clues indicate something different. When the group got to the Mount of Olives they tried again to get a clear prophecy of ‘the end’, still believing they were not two events separated by two thousand years but only one event. Jesus refers them to the destruction of Jerusalem, which happened in 70 AD, then He refers them to the events prophesied by Daniel.
Well, the day you predicted has come and gone without the Rapture. Will you publicly admit you are a false prophet now??
The Revelation 12 signs have taken place, so we are still in the Book of the Revelation. We are still in the 40 days after the Eclipse as in the Sign of Noah. That ends, interestingly enough, on Yom Kippur where they do blow the Shofar.
Identifying the Church as “the daily” in Daniel 12:11 was a mistake. However, given the way the world has gone crazy after that day it appears that some restraining factor has been taken away.
Ezekiel provided this analysis in another thread:
We can examine the Hebrew word “daily” to see how it is used elsewhere in scripture. Daily sacrifice (hattamid) is used 24 times: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/hattamid_8548.htm . How many times does the word refer to daily sacrifices? Take a guess. ALL OF THEM! Bread, grain, oil, drink, meat, showbread are all connected throughout Numbers and Nehemiah where the word is used in addition to Daniel.
The word “daily” in the Daniel passages, like all other places in the Bible, is ALWAYS used of the daily or continual sacrifice in the holy place. It is NEVER used to refer to something else.
I don’t have much in common with Sub’s theology or interpretations, but in Daniel is only where tamid is used as a stand alone definite noun, *the* tamid. The always/continual/perpetual [thing]. It is not used to modify any type of sacrifices or anything else. In all those other cases, the hei prefix is the grammar form for tamid being used as a modifier.
The one place in Daniel where ha-tamid is a modifier is in verse 8:13: ad matai hehazon hatamid, “until when [is] the daily vision”, or “until when [is] the vision of the tamid”.
Now people can assume that because it is used typically as a modifier for sacrifices, that ha-tamid also means the exact same in the book of Daniel. All info needs to go into the hopper for consideration. Daniel’s use is different than the others, that’s just a fact. That doesn’t mean people can be free and loose with their own meanings though. It simply is what it is, something that is always/perpetual/continual/ does-not-change. And it will be removed/cast off/rejected or what have you.
An example of where we see this type of action, is in the wholesale rejection of truth that pervades society in some pretty grotesque forms (”transgender”, the denial of biological reality). Truth by nature does not change, regardless of who plays Creator in order to invent his own reality.
It’s what’s in a person’s heart, and *that* “tamid” is in a person’s heart.
Just check out the word lev (lamed bet), “heart”. The letters of the word spelled out are:
lamed mem dalet, bet yud tav.
The revealed letters are lamed bet which is lev; the concealed letters spell tamid.
Somebody out there is bound to appreciate that bit of data.
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I responded with:
I read somewhere that the last letter of the Hebrew Bible was lamed, so that Elohim was pointing to what it meant to be “after His own heart”.
I just checked to make sure, and was surprised to see that the last verse of 2 Chronicles 36 is from Cyrus’ decree to rebuild the temple. The last sentence is translated as “Whoever is among you of all his people, the Lord his God be with him, and let him go up.”
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And he came back with:
Yes. It is also the last letter of the Torah. The first letter is bet, so either way, the Torah of Moses or the full Tanakh is bookended by lamed bet, the heart.
There is much written about this.
The simple but very deep concept is that every letter and word within the Torah as well as the Hebrew Bible is *contained within the heart*.
To expand that into the NT, the last letter is the Greek nu in Amen, which is spelled nun vav in Hebrew.
So to be consistent, the first letter in Gen 1:1 spelled as a word is bet (bet yud tav), and the last in Rev is the Greek nu, spelled nun vav.
Together this spells beitenu, our home.
Home is where the heart is. It should be in the truth, because that does not change.
Thus on one level, the word tamid (the letters contained inside of the lev, heart) is a miniature little world representing every word in the Tanakh.
And you can see that truth has been rejected and cut out from the hearts of men. The imagery of the “Mother” movie shows that Hollyweird taps into the spiritual realms.
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So, to me, it is more likely that the “tamid” is, as Ezekiel says, “a miniature little world representing every word in the Tanakh” and Abba Father YHWH took it away from Mankind on Tishrei 1, 5778.
My friend, Charlie Garrett, says that every dispensation or age is designed to teach mankind that they can’t get along without Elohim no matter what. The Tribulation Age seems to be an Age of Law without the Law. So taking away the Law and the Prophets in the early stages would make sense. The timeline still makes sense. We have simply misread the playbill. So let’s take some time to look at what we really know about the playbill before we toss out the timeline as start over.
So if you want to count coup, then be my guest, but you might want to make sure you are going about your Father’s business.
The day you predicted has come and gone. No rapture. No Second Coming. You are a false prophet. Admit it.
So at 7:58, Salvation publishes the answer to you taunting:
Pope, Charles writes:
There comes a time when warnings and minor punishments are no longer effective; only the most severe and widespread of losses will purge the evil. Surely this is evident in the smoking ruins of Jerusalem in 587 BC. Those who survived were taken to live in exile.
By the waters of Babylon, there we sat down and wept, when we remembered Zion. On the willows there we hung up our harps (Ps 137:1-2).
We should not delude ourselves into thinking that such a terrible event could only occur in the ancient world. We must consider that our condition can become so debased, so corrupted, that the only solution is the most severe of punishments, one so onerous that we cannot possibly return to our former ways, one that levels the very sources of our pride and sin.
Today, we kill shocking numbers of children in the womb; no amount of preaching or teaching of medical truth seems capable of ending this shedding of innocent blood. Our families are collapsing; we are suffering the ravages of our sexual sins. In our greed we cannot seem to control our spending or ever say no to ourselves. We are saddling future generations with insurmountable debt. No matter the warnings, we cannot or will not stop. There is desperate confusion and silence even in the Church, where one would hope for clarity and words of sanity. Corruptio optimi pessima (The corruption of the best is the worst thing). Believers are silent, weak, and divided, while the wicked and secular are fierce, committed, and focused.
All the while, in our affluence, we cannot imagine that a crushing end might come. Yet God said to the ancient, affluent city of Laodicea,
You say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see (Revelation 3:17-18).
It becomes hard to see how God might bring us to conversion without the severest of blows.
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Read the whole thing at:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3588837/posts
9 For they themselves relate of us, what manner of entering in we had unto you; and how you turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God. 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven (whom he raised up from the dead,) Jesus, who hath delivered us from the wrath to come.
Each of we believers need to decided when we believe that deliverance happens. Personally, my decades of study assure me that His return to take us to The Father's House will happen before God begins the Tribulation, and the Feasts of Israel foreshadow that, for the Barley harvest needs no tribulum to crush the grain from the stalks.
Nope. You made a claim yesterday would be the day. It didn’t happen. Now you’re trying to evade the obvious conclusion you are a false prophet to be ignored.
The LORD rebuke you!
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