The location for Luke's passage is the Temple. The Location for the Matthew and Mark telling is the path down and then up to the Mount of Olives and on the Mount of Olives. the persons to whom Jesus addresses the Two Discourses are different: the Mount of Olives Discourse being to the four Disciples, the Temple Discourse being to the throng of folks who would go to Temple to hear Him.
The temporal perspectives are different, also: the Temple Discourse was focused upon the imminent destruction of Jerusalem, the Olivet Discourse focused upon answering the question posed by the Disciple 'when will the end come'.
The major clues are the words 'after these things' and 'but before these things'.
The two 'listeners' being addressed are 'Israel' and The Church, the Body of Believers. The nation of Israel is cautioned to watch for the signs of His imminent return to the Earth, whereas The Church has been told that no signs foretell the day or hour of His coming for us. The moment of His coming for us to meet Him in the clouds can be even before I finish this post. The Coming to Earth is preceded by a list of signs and His setting foot upon the Earth is a culmination.
The Rapture is imminent. The setting foot upon the Earth is at least seven years away, depending upon how much more time God gives us to witness of His Salvation offered to those not yet saved. But there will come a moment, very soon, when the last member of His Body of Believers will happen and THEN He will do as He promised to His Disc iples in John 14.
It has been speculated that a vast array of Believers left Jerusalem prior to Vespasian/Titus Roman Legions destroying that city, because of the warning Prophecy Jesus gave in The Temple Discourse. We today think of 'nations' as the US, Russia, Germany, etc. In the time of Vespasian's campaign through Palestine on his way to Jerusalem, the word had a different context, tied to the people who were conquered by Israel as they took 'the Promised Land'.
The Body of Believers are told to be ready for at any moment Our Lord can come for us. The believers who will come to salvation during the Tribulation are told to watch for the signs of His return tot he Earth. The signs pointed to by Jesus are for the ones who will be under great distress during the Tribulation.
Meant to ping you also to the above.
“The location for Luke’s passage is the Temple. The Location for the Matthew and Mark telling is the path down and then up to the Mount of Olives and on the Mount of Olives. the persons to whom Jesus addresses the Two Discourses are different: the Mount of Olives Discourse being to the four Disciples, the Temple Discourse being to the throng of folks who would go to Temple to hear Him.”
You are making an assertion, apparently to support your particular eschatological view, but failed to offer any examples from the passages to support your assertion. It is an improper way to handle scripture (if you, I, or anyone does so), to start with a viewpoint and simply find ways to make various passages of scripture fit with our viewpoint. I am not accusing you of this, but simply stating that you must offer more than an assertion. You might indeed have an insight into a text that I or others do not, but you can not expect us to simply take your word for it.
I already established in my earlier post, and I think you do not disagree, that these passages reflect events of approximately the same timeframe. So let us compare the specific cases where the passages match in order to test your proposition:
Matthew 24:3
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Mark 13:3-4
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”
Luke 21:7
So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”
Here we have the same questions, posed by the same people - His disciples (four in particular). The first two passages indicate that these questions happened a little later, in response to what Jesus prophesied about the destruction of the temple. Notice also that they asked Him privately. Luke does not disclose this aspect of the questions either. It seems very apparent to me that their questions and His response to their questions occurred on the Mount of Olives.
Your assertion that the discourse in Matthew and Mark happened on “the path down and then up to the Mount of Olives and on the Mount of Olives” does not align with the verses I just presented. While it is certainly possible that Jesus taught His disciples and / or the throngs during this short journey, there is no indication of it in any of the passages that I can see. And your assertion seems to contradict the order of events as they are plainly listed in these passages. Are you asserting that the disciples asked these questions twice? Once at the temple and then again in private on the mountain?
I am having trouble following your line of reasoning because you are simply making an assertion of something that does not seem to be anywhere in the passages, and you give no supporting evidence or defense of your assertion. It seems you simply like this explanation because it fits within your eschatological framework. But, again, this is not the proper way to interpret the passage.
“The major clues are the words ‘after these things’ and ‘but before these things’.”
Can you be more specific? I found this:
Luke 21:12
But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
This does not seem to indicate anything different from the passages in Matthew and Mark other than that perhaps persecution should be considered normative. This persecution is clearly characteristic of what antichrist does, but it is also something that we see throughout the book of Acts.
Perhaps your studies involve delineating between the portions of these passages that concern the 70 A.D. destruction and those that have not yet been fulfilled. That could be an interesting analysis. But so far I do not see any substance to the position you are arguing for.
“The nation of Israel is cautioned to watch for the signs of His imminent return to the Earth, whereas The Church has been told that no signs foretell the day or hour of His coming for us.”
Where? Be specific? What passages? What verses? Freely ye have received, freely share.
“The moment of His coming for us to meet Him in the clouds can be even before I finish this post... The Rapture is imminent.”
You are simply asserting the idea of imminence rather than providing supporting evidence.
“But there will come a moment, very soon, when the last member of His Body of Believers will happen and THEN He will do as He promised to His Disciples in John 14.”
Let’s see:
John 14:2
In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jesus left. He ascended to Heaven and sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High. He told of a “place” He is preparing. This means that it was not prepared yet. Is it prepared now? What preparation is required? Is He making something new? Or is He preparing something already there? According to the passage, the places are already there. They just need to be prepared.
What needs to change or happen for our place in Heaven to be ready for occupation? Let me suggest that at least one thing has not happened yet, that will happen. Satan and his angels are going to be evicted by Michael and his angels.
Revelation 12:7-9
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Notice particular phrase in the above passage: “nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.” I will suggest that there is a limited amount of space in Heaven. Unlike hell, which is never full, God desires for Heaven to be filled. However, there is no room for Satan or any of his followers. They will be evicted.
Proverbs 27:20
Hell and Destruction are never full;
So the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Luke 14:23
Then the master said to the servant, “Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.”
I believe that in order for the raptured church to occupy her new heavenly home, Satan, the accuser, must first be evicted. While I am not claiming to have proved as much, I have provided some significant supporting evidence as to WHY I believe this to be the case.
“The Body of Believers are told to be ready for at any moment Our Lord can come for us.”
Where?
Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
But read the context. This is clearly in regard to His return AFTER the Great Tribulation:
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The thought continues in the subsequent verses. There is continuity. Verse 42 is not part of a separate sermon or discourse.
Many scriptures tells us both to watch and be ready, and also to persevere and wait patiently. These are not contradictory. And neither position is definitively proven by such passages. We can neither add meaning that is not there, nor take away meaning that is there. Saying we do not know when is not the same as saying it could happen at any moment or will be without preceding signs. The passage above proves this.
“The believers who will come to salvation during the Tribulation are told to watch for the signs of His return tot he Earth.”
Or they are believers who were already believers before the Tribulation began. Christ’s return will become imminent only when the 6 signs He told us would come, have come to pass. Before then there is no point in standing around looking up into the sky. But when they do happen, then we can start looking up. He will arrive at any moment, but only after the 6 signs of His return have been fulfilled.
Believe me, there is nothing that I want more than for Christ to return. There is nothing for me in this world. If He came today, that would be awesome. But He gave us the reason for His delay in returning. It is for more people to be saved. And I do know people who would not be saved if He returned today.
According to the pre-tribulational rapture position, if we have friends and loved ones who are not saved now, and Christ returns, they get another chance. But this is not consistent with scripture. When people reject the truth, God says He will send them strong delusion.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Every person needs to be right with God right now because no one knows how long they have before they die and give an account to God. On the other hand, we also do not know what we may have to endure before then either. We must have a mindset that is prepared to endure.
There is a great danger in advocating the certainty of a pre-tribulational rapture that is not promised to us in scripture. When this does not happen, and followers of Christ find that they must face the persecution of antichrist and all of the difficulties of the Great Tribulation, then they may be discouraged. Many may come to feel that God did not keep His promise. Many may feel they have missed out on the rapture. Only He did not promise to come before the Great Tribulation or the antichrist. He specifically describes His return as being after these things.
Christ will come for us just as He promised. And it will be darkest just before the dawn. I do not need to persuade anyone. The circumstances the final generation of New Testament believers find themselves encountering will speak for themselves. When followers of Christ see the antichrist defile the temple, proclaim himself to be God, and demand that everyone take the “mark of the beast,” they will know that Christ’s return was not before these things. Hopefully, many who disbelieve this message now will come to their senses then, and realize that they were misled. However, it would be better to understand this now.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.