Posted on 08/11/2017 10:41:52 PM PDT by boatbums
Summary
The Council of Nicea is often misrepresented by cults and other religious movements. The actual concern of the council was clearly and unambiguously the relationship between the Father and the Son. Is Christ a creature, or true God? The council said He was true God. Yet, the opponents of the deity of Christ did not simply give up after the council’s decision. In fact, they almost succeeded in overturning the Nicene affirmation of Christ’s deity. But faithful Christians like Athanasius continued to defend the truth, and in the end, truth triumphed over error.
The conversation intensified quickly. “You can’t really trust the Bible,” my Latter-day Saints acquaintance said, “because you really don’t know what books belong in it. You see, a bunch of men got together and decided the canon of Scripture at the Council of Nicea, picking some books, rejecting others.” A few others were listening in on the conversation at the South Gate of the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City. It was the LDS General Conference, and I again heard the Council of Nicea presented as that point in history where something “went wrong,” where some group of unnamed, faceless men “decided” for me what I was supposed to believe. I quickly corrected him about Nicea — nothing was decided, or even said, about the canon of Scripture at that council.1
I was reminded how often the phrase “the Council of Nicea” is used as an accusation by those who reject the Christian faith. New Agers often allege that the council removed the teaching of reincarnation from the Bible.2 And of course, Jehovah’s Witnesses and critics of the deity of Christ likewise point to that council as the “beginning of the Trinity” or the “first time the deity of Christ was asserted as orthodox teaching.” Others see it as the beginning of the union of church and state in light of the participation of the Roman Emperor, Constantine. Some even say it was the beginning of the Roman Catholic church.
Indepence: Not the Vice President...
Nope; three.
Maybe it keeps people ignorant, so they don't leave the cult, and take their money with them. Yet they interpret scripture for themselves, but attempt to deny you and me the same privilege.
I still remember some dude, 3 or 4 years ago, when I asked him why he kept interpreting scripture without a "clergy man" to interpret for him, he just said he didn't interpret scripture, he just read it, and told me what it said. I could hear you laughing, 8,000 miles away.
That’s what we all do.
The only reason Scripture needs to be *interpreted* is that someone doesn’t like what it says and wants it to mean something else.
So they have to *interpret* it to find the *hidden* meaning that supports their preferred doctrine.
According to Apollo C Quiboloy, the new Jerusalem is Davao City. I beg to differ with him.
Perhaps the term does appear but not together. "He was in the beginning (meaning at the eternal commencement in the Greek) with God" (John 1:2). Christ was begotten (Psalms 2:7). So one has to conclude Christ was eternally begotten because it is in scripture. While the terms may not be linked, they most certainly are scriptural as one can plainly see.
But BB your verse in Isaiah is most wonderful. His name (Christ) shall be called 1) Wonderful Counselor, The mighty God, 3) The everlasting Father, 4) The Prince of Peace. One has to wonder how could our Lord Jesus be called the "everlasting Father" if it were not for the Father and the Son being one.
I pay attention to metmom, boatbums, and the rest of my friends here. I will continue to do so, no matter who likes or doesn't like it.
LOL’s and my apologies to Elsie.
Yeah, that scoundrel should be given a good ol’ Okie butt whooping.
Again, didn’t know Elsie background so in the future ...
“You are divorcing yourself from 2,000 years of learned Christian reflection and sound doctrine, imagining that your “spiritual insight” is correct and the collective doctors of the Church are wrong.”
No, we are condemning any heresy the “doctors” got wrong in their support of syncretic paganism - most of which developed after the time of the Apostles.
Galileo experienced their “learned Christian reflection” first-hand. As did Christian martyrs who pointed out the errors of Rome.
“Sorry to say but there is not one inota of reason why anyone should pay you the slightest attention.”
Unless one is interested in truth, I agree with you.
LOL. Elsie and I have this Limerick war going on. As he pointed out once, it's a guy thing. It's all in good fun. He is sometimes incognito, masquerading as a Catholic_wannebe_dude, or a Mormon_dude. I am an ex Catholic myself.
Who is responsible for your soul? YOU ARE. The Bible is Gods letter to humanity. You can listen to Him directly or you can listen to 2000 years of tainted Koolaid from clever scholars. Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to direct us. If we are directed by the Holy Spirit, we will understand what God intends us to. If we CHOOSE to ignore the Holy Spirit and go with learned scholars for our eternal salvation then we will get what we deserve.
Jesus made a promise about the Holy Spirit being sent to us to direct us. Do you believe Jesus? He didn’t say He would send tradition or learned scholars. A learned scholar snake deceived Eve in the Garden of Eden. She should have listened to God. We need to listen to Him now through his message in the Bible.
Gotta love Bruce McConkie. He sold that scam as best he could. Including the Second Coming up near Gallatin.
He was one of their scholars! It’s sad really - he knew nothing of what he proclaimed as fact and deceived many.
Knew a guy that was LDS - he moved to Independence, Missouri because they had instructed him, of course, to gather to that area for that purpose. In fact, there’s a small “Zion Restoration” church up there that’s been there for decades (if it still exists - it was there less than 10 years ago).
It’s perhaps not surprising they go way back and start with the ridiculous lie of the Garden of Eden having been in Jackson County, Missouri.
It’s one of their most basic errors and a huge one. Another is, and I heard it here first, they “celebrate” what Eve did in the Garden of Eden. Because she found or gained “knowledge”.
My God in Heaven - about the worst statement I’ve ever heard passed off as “Christian doctrine”.
Then, one day, I was watching TV and flipped to the BYU channel. Four of their “scholars” were nodding in agreement as one of the “scholars” said the very same thing. They simply do not comprehend how utterly wrong that is. Yeah, Satan loved Eve’s choice as well. That’s why he sold it to her.
**Perhaps the term does appear but not together.**
So you put them together anyway in this fashion....
**eternal commencement**
I saw that the Greek means commencement. Beginning means commencement.
I pointed out that your flesh is not your word, but the means to express your words.
But your words (when not speaking for someone else) are yours. They come from your mind. You are able to create words. Your words are an extension, or expression, of you. Isn’t your word with you? When you leave your house, does your word stay in the house? Of course not. Your word is IN you.
And you are IN your word. How so? You function physically in the parameters your word limits you to (such as wedding vows, promises, etc).
The Son said that his words were NOT his, but the Father’s.
The flesh of the Son is not God, but only the express image of him that is invisible.
So as you read about the Word in John 1:1-3 and 14, the Father is there as well, for the Word is his (the Son is ‘of’ God, hence the phrase: the Son OF God). And the Son said the words and doctrine wasn’t his, but was IN him, for the Son declared that Father is in him doing the works (and as I’m sure you recall, many of the miracles happened by simply speaking the word).
“IN”......let’s look at that little word....
John 1:4 “IN him was life, and the life was the light of men”.
5:26 “For as the Father hath life IN himself; so hath he GIVEN to the Son to have life IN himself.”
Matt. 3:17 (the Lord’s baptism), and 17:5 (the transfiguration), both have a voice from above, saying, “This is my beloved Son, IN whom I am well pleased”. I believe the word “IN” is literal in that case, with so much scripture that harmonizes with that fact. The voice came from elsewhere for the listeners sake, so that they could be sure that the Son wasn’t alone, and speaking for himself (John 12:28-30 “...This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes”.)
That’s how you get the mighty God in Christ: the power and words of the Father are IN Christ.
Isaiah 9:6.... do you think that God the Father is not anywhere in that verse?
We have at least one thing we can agree on.
I admit I have nothing on my about page about my religous beliefs. One could think I am hiding something. You have called me a Mormon because they do not accept the Doctrine of the Trinity. You have stated I am using talking points as if these thoughts could not be my personal beliefs base on how I interpret scripture. You stated I am not a Christian and warned me to not be involved with works based religion.
You show several sources you say influenced your scriptural understanding on your about page. I was surprised to not find this posted or a link to it. I have highlighted a couple of areas that I find troubling.
This is what the catholic faith teaches.
We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity. We distinguish among the persons, but we do not divide the substance. For the Father is a distinct person; the Son is a distinct person; and the Holy Spirit is a distinct person. Still the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and co-eternal majesty. What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal. Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being. Thus there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being. Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, and the Holy Spirit is omnipotent. Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being. Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But there are not three gods, but one God. The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord. There are not three lords, but one Lord. For according to Christian truth, we must profess that each of the persons individually is God; and according to Christian religion we are forbidden to say that there are three gods or lords. The Father is not made by anyone, nor created by anyone, nor generated by anyone. The Son is not made nor created, but he is generated by the Father alone. The Holy Spirit is not made nor created nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son. There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, but not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. In this Trinity, there is nothing greater, nothing less than anything else. But the entire three persons are co-eternal and coequal with one another. So that, as we have said, we worship complete unity in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity.
This, then, is what he who wishes to be saved must believe about the Trinity.
It is also necessary for eternal salvation that he believes steadfastly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The true faith is: we believe and profess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man. As God He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time; as man He was born in time of the substance of His Mother. He is perfect God; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh. He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but He is inferior to the Father in His humanity. Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ. And He is one, not because His divinity was changed into flesh, but because His humanity was assumed to God. He is one, not at all because of a mingling of substances, but because He is one person. As a rational soul and flesh are one man: so God and man are one Christ. He died for our salvation, descended to hell, arose from the dead on the third day. Ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty, and from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At His coming, all men are to arise with their own bodies; and they are to give an account of their lives. Those who have done good deeds will go into eternal life; those who have done evil will go into everlasting fire.
This religionis the Catholic faith. Everyone must believe it, firmly and steadfastly; otherwise He cannot be saved. Amen.
This shows me how clever the god of this world is. This is what you need be a catholic, disciples of the church fathers. I am not a catholic. I am a Christian, a disciple of the Christ.
I posted this came about 300 years after Our Lord's death and resurrection. That is when it became a tradition of the catholic cult. It states you will be judged by your works if I understand the 3rd highlighted part.
This is the result of a majority of the leaders agreeing Mary is the mother of god instead of the mother of the Son of God. How many times a day do you chant Hail Mary or pray to the mother of god?
Satan used the first part I highlighted to claim the people of the book are polytheists to establish Islam. I call Islam a fruit of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Apologist claim Mohammad didn't understand the Trinity. Here are a couple of verses from the Koran.
"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesusthe son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs." (Koran 4:171)
"They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them." (Koran 5:73)
I don't know how many souls have or will be lost to Islam. It is impossible for me to believe the Spirit of an omnipresent God is the source.
May God our Father lead us to his truth. BVB
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