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Locked on 06/28/2017 3:25:17 PM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Flame war material. |
Posted on 06/28/2017 9:04:53 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
Seeing the despotism exercised by the head of the Reformation in imposing his opinions, one might imagine that nothing should be more soundly and painstakingly elaborated than his new doctrine. Such conclusion is completely mistaken.
Martin Luther, reformer
His doctrine, dictated by personal whims and prejudices The false divine messenger, who ‘modestly’ preferred himself to all the Doctors of the Church and pretended to be inspired by the Holy Ghost since he received ‘his dogmas from heaven,’ in reality is insecure, regretful about his early teachings, contradictory and arbitrary. Whether he established dogmas or destroyed them, he was motivated by trivialities and personal prejudices. He changed his opinions like an actor changing his costumes. Here are some examples:
Conditional baptism - On May 12, 1531 Luther wrote to Wenzel Link about conditional baptism, affirming that “after careful consideration we have defined that it must simply be eliminated from the Church.” The next day, he changed his mind. Again ‘inspired,’ he wrote to Ossiandro: “I cannot condemn conditional baptism being given to children whose first baptism is doubtful” (1)
Power of the Catholic Church - In 1519 he wrote: “I fully confess the supreme power of the Roman Church; after Jesus Christ Our Lord, she should be preferred to everything on earth and heaven.” (2) This Church “is the one chosen by God; there can be no reason for anyone to break away from her and, entering into schism, separate himself from her unity.” (3) In 1520, in his Lutheran Epistle, he strongly praised Pope Leo X, saying that his courageous life placed him above any attack. (4)
However, in that same year Leo X would become the Antichrist and the Roman Church “a licentious den of thieves, the most depraved brothel, the kingdom of sin, death and hell.” (5)
Saints, purgatory, prayer for the dead - In 1519, two years after he publicly started to preach his Reformation, while defending himself from adversaries, he taught the cult of the saints, the existence of purgatory, praying for the deceased, the practice of fasting etc. (6) Some years later, he rejected all these doctrines as idolatry, superstition and fanaticism.
Indulgences - In 1541 he swore in Christ’s name that when he began to preach against Dominican Johann Tetzel, accusing him of selling indulgences, he did not even know what the word indulgence meant! (7) Notwithstanding, his criticism against those same indulgences - about which he knew nothing - had served as a pretext for him to attack Rome, disseminate his errors and preach the revolt! (8)
Luther’s own mission - Regarding the origin and ‘legitimacy’ of his mission, in a little more than 15 years Luther changed his views at least 14 times (9). Opportunism dictated his choices. To combat Catholics he would say one thing; to defend himself before his Protestant colleagues he would affirm another; he had yet other arguments to calm the turbulence in the new reformed communities. The actor had a well-stocked wardrobe, with costumes for a multitude of roles
It would not be difficult to continue this list of contradictions. There is almost no important dogma about which Luther did not completely change his views from time to time.
Changes motivated by irrational hatred
To understand Luther’s psychology, one must examine the motivation for his constant vacillations. Writing about Communion under one of two species in his liturgical essay called Formula Missae, he stated: “If a council would mandate or allow two species, to show our scorn we would receive only one or neither one
Manuscript, purgatory verses
A 15th-century English manuscript with Bible verses on Purgatory, which Luther eliminated on a whim nor the other, and we would anathematize those who, following that mandate, would receive both” (10).
On another occasion, he declared that he had decided to do away with the elevation of the host at mass just to show his contempt for the Papacy and that he had conserved the custom up until then just to scorn Andreas Karlstadt [another more radical Protestant who had already abandoned this practice] (11).
With similar vileness he wrote in 1523: “If it should happen that one, two, or a thousand and more councils would decide that ecclesiastics should marry, I, trusting in divine grace, would rather forgive the one who has two or three harlots throughout his life than the one who, following that conciliar decision, would take one legitimate wife forever” (12).
The same psychological bias against the hated papists appeared when he wrote: “Since they [the papists] think they are triumphing over one of my heresies, then let me propose another” (13).
What a mixture of vulgarity, licentiousness and duplicity in the supposed “evangelic reformer”!
One other fact should not be forgotten. It is the famous sacramental dispute that divided the innovators Martin Luther and Andreas Karlstadt into two irremediably separated camps, which started with this tavern scene. After a harangue by Luther, the two reformers entered Black Bear Inn in Jura, where Karlstadt declared he could no longer tolerate Luther’s opinion on the real presence. Luther scornfully challenged him to refute his position in writing and promised him a florin if he would do it. He took a coin from his pocket and Karlstadt accepted it.
The wine flowed; the contenders shook hands and drank to each other’s health. This was their declaration of war on August 22, 1523. Karlstadt, bidding Luther farewell, said: “I hope you will be smashed by a roller!” Returning the amiability, Luther replied: “May a thousand lighting bolts strike you before you leave town!”
From this episode Bossuet concluded: “This is the new gospel, these are the acts of the new apostles…” (14)
Changes inspired by the Devil
His reason for suppressing the mass appears to be more ‘supernatural.’ It was the victory of the Devil in a terrible dispute into which Luther had entered with him. Luther himself narrated the episode in detail and then concluded:
“This [surrender] should surprise no one since the logic of the Devil was delivered in such a blood-curdling voice that it nearly froze the blood in my veins. I understood then why some persons die in the night: It is because the Devil can kill and suffocate men, and even if he does not take those extremes, he can entangle them in his disputes with so many obstacles they can cause death: I have experienced this many times” (15).
Was Luther lying when he described this episode or was he telling the truth? If the latter is the case, what reliance can be put on a man whose teacher was the Father of Lies? Let the admirers of the reformer try to find a resolution for this dilemma…
The episode above is indicative of the important role the Devil played in the interior life of the heresiarch. Indeed, Satan never leaves him alone a moment. He follows him day and night, into both the church and the tavern. More than once Luther stated that his life was “a series of duels” with Satan. He slept with the Devil more often than with his Katerina.
He saw the Devil everywhere: in the cloud that passed, in the lightning that struck, in the thunder that roared, in the forests, waters, deserts, infesting the air and the fields. He saw devils hidden in serpents and lizards, monkeys and parrots, in the fly that rested on his book, even in the walnuts sent by an admirer. The Evil Spirit was the one who routinely resolved every difficult problem for him. To the Devil’s malefic action Luther attributed the moral disorders and social calamities unchained by his subversive doctrines (16).
This diabolic obsession that tortured the soul of the unfortunate renegade can be seen in all of Luther’s writings. Devils dominate in his style; one would say that some of his pages were written in Hell. In the essay against Duke Henry of Brunswick, the Devil is honored by being named 146 times; in the book on the councils he mentioned the Devil 15 times in four lines (17). He accused the adversaries of the Reformation of having “a satanist, super-satanist and hyper-satanist heart.” To Luther must be attributed the initiative of making a new genre of writing fashionable, one dominated by the Devil, whose tune all the other reformers would follow and sing.
Are these uncertainties, doctrinal contradictions, superficiality in inventing and destroying dogmas, and satanic arrogance and language befitting a messenger who proposes to restore Christianity?
“They make many Catholics looks like tree worshiping pagans.”
They make many Catholics look right.
“Note, I am LCMS not WELS.”
Note, it was obvious. Note, don’t note the obvious.
“One rather enjoyable evening I wandered into a message board where a WELS member and a SSPX member were having a go. I am not sure who won, but they agreed all that didn’t belong to their parish were suspect.”
Break offs are usually like that.
Except that this Pope is determined to merge the Catholic Church with the Lutherans
Luther and Francis have one important thing in common: they are/were manifest heretics. They are/were not Catholic.
At least Luther didn't pretend to be pope.
Usually these types of thread are caucus threads. Only open for Catholics. But this one was way over the top from the get go. Insulting and inflammatory.
This thread will go on and on for another hour or two. Maybe reach 200 replies.
Then and only then will Jim Rob or the Religion Mod pull the thread and send it down the rabbit hole.
Seen this once - seen it dozens of times. Enyoy the flame back and forth while it lasts.
That good pre-Moses RC tradition. Here I thought it was traditional to to attribute the Bible to God. It is now the word of the RCC? No wonder they never read it.
‘The Roman Rooster’, well done, you win the thread.
Pages and pages of calling Dr. Luther a poopy head, and you call it an excellent article.
I’ll stifle my tongue on comments about why this is.
Saw one of these threads two days ago, except it was bashing Baptists and they claimed it was a caucus thread.
Mod went and yanked the caucus designation asap, because the ‘catholic caucus’ line is apparently only allowed if it doesn’t mention any other Christian beliefs.
Whatever the case, I’ve alerted the mod; let’s see how long it takes before it gets wiped.
Francis and Leo X have one important thing in common. They are both manifest heretics.
Luther was lucky enough to get kicked out of the Catholic cult when he tried to preach the truth; otherwise the rest of us Protestants would still be trapped in the Catholic cult too.
Thank you Lord for Dr. Luther.
See, I can also be nasty and snarky.
I wish they would leave these threads up. Not pull them.
But lock them. No more replies.
A lot of people have made very reasonable arguments here. Both for and against proddies vs. cat licks.
Not that any one single point here will change anyone’s mind one single iota, but the time and trouble we have invested so far on this thread should remain.
Up to a point. Then lock it.
My 0.2
What ever else Luther was he was able to read what the Vulgate said and that is what people needed to know in order to see for themselves that the appointed leaders in the church were just using religion to have dictatorial powers over the people.
I have no argument that Catholics were the first Christians after the Apostles, the only question i have is how fast did the Catholic Church turn away from Christ`s teaching and start making up their own rules?
It seems the main thing at Luther`s time was to make it as rough as they could for any common person to read the Bible
and who can blame them, when it finally happened there was a revolt.
Douay-Rheims Bible translated from the Catholic Vulgate
Mathew 23
5 And all their works they do for to be seen of men. For they make their phylacteries broad, and enlarge their fringes.
6 And they love the first places at feasts, and the first chairs in the synagogues,
7 And salutations in the market place, and to be called by men, Rabbi.
8 But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master; and all you are brethren.
9 And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters; for one is you master, Christ.
11 He that is the greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mathew 20
25 But Jesus called them to him, and said: You know that the princes of the Gentiles lord it over them; and they that are the greater, exercise power upon them.
26 It shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be the greater among you, let him be your minister:
27 And he that will be first among you, shall be your servant.
28 Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many.
The same as the King James Bible 1200 years later.
Jerome Translated much of the Vulgate before ad 400 so was the Church more honest at that time? if not why would they let Him tell the truth?
Actually I wasn’t being nasty and snarky. I was being factual. To be honest, my post was more about Francis than your beloved Luther because the heretic sitting in the Seat of Peter is more dangerous than the heretics of old these days.
How could the public statement, much akin to a wedding ceremony and the attendant wedding bands be wrong and/or heretical?
Is it now a sin for an adult to publicly proclaim his belief in Christ?
Factual, eh?
Okay, I’ll play along.
Thank God for Dr. Luther’s heresy; a heretic against the Satanic religion that calls it Roman Catholicism has to be doing something right.
Completely missing the point...again.
Let me ask you Luiricin, have I been snarky with you before? Have you been aware of the gist of my posting history?
I don’t care about the Catholic vs Protestant “debates”. I only care about the heretical crap going down in Rome...
There are other Catholic posters who fit the “nasty and snarky” mold even to other Catholics...I try not to go there.
YOPIOS
Christians are encouraged to read and interpret the Scriptures and to love God with their whole mind.
In that context, God tells us he gives the church teachers to help us.
It is never good to outsource your mind ebb!
**the Satanic religion that calls it Roman Catholicism**
Where are you getting this misinformation?
“Where are you getting this misinformation?
Hmmm...
Willful, tone-deafness may explain why it is unheard...
Is it a new moon? Time for FRomans to hate Martin Luther again.
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