Posted on 05/10/2017 9:03:36 AM PDT by Salvation
Continuing with the theme of urgency from yesterday’s post, we do well to consider Mary’s fervent requests at Fatima for prayer, conversion, and consecration. This Saturday will mark the 100th anniversary of Mary’s first appearance at Fatima.
It was a critical time in human history. The First World War had claimed more than 17 million lives. Mary urged prayer to end this catastrophe:
Thanks be to God, through the children’s prayers and surely those of others, the war did soon end. In October, Our Lady said,
War is a terrible result of human sinfulness as well as a punishment for it. Sin is its own punishment; when we sow the wind, we reap the whirlwind. Part of the horror of the First World War was the use of chemical weapons. So appalling was the suffering and so great was the loss of life that in 1925 most nations willingly signed the Geneva Protocol, which prohibited their use in international armed conflicts.
But Mother Mary urgently warned that if the people of this world did not repent, pray, and cease offending God, a war far worse would come:
Sadly, as we know, the Second World War formally ensued in 1939. Months earlier, in 1938, a remarkable display of the Aurora Borealis further south than ever observed made international headlines. It was a final warning. More than 60 million people died in World War II. Atrocities were multiplied, and the most fearsome weapon ever contrived—the atom bomb—would haunt the world long after the war. Russia, too, spread Marxist and atheist errors.
See what happens when we do heed the urgent request to pray? Wars can be ended, souls can be saved, and peace can be brought.
But also note the terrible consequences of failing to pray and be converted! Jesus once said to paralyzed man he had healed, See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you (John 5:14). So, too, for the people of that time who, though having received God’s mercies in the end of World War I, fell back into sin. The decadence, financial excess, and foolishness of the “roaring” 1920s, both in Europe and America, brought a harvest of corruption, both morally and politically. It ushered in both the Great Depression and then a war far worse than ever imagined.
Yes, prayer and conversion are both urgent and essential. This is true not only in terms of this world, but also of the world to come. This world’s travails are indeed awful, but they are temporary. Mother Mary sets far greater stakes before us: Heaven or Hell.
Where will you spend eternity? What about your children, siblings, and friends? Have you thought about this at all? Do you understand the urgency? Consider well some of what our Lady of Fatima said by way of an eternal warning:
Here is a mother urgently warning her children of the fires of hell, of the consequences of sin and the final refusal to repent. Here is a mother urgently calling for prayer, reparation, sacrifices, and conversion.
She is urgent; are we? To be urgent does not mean to be in a panic; it means to be sober and alert, to be persistent and consistent in attending to our final end and to that of others to the degree that we are able.
Caritas Christi urget nos: The Love of Christ urges us on! …. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:14, 20).
As I said, I don’t want to argue on this thread because it’ll derail and probably provide fuel for the same people that we’re both trying to argue against.
So I’ll just post what I’ve learned and then leave it at that for now. If you want to discuss more, FRmail me, would you kindly?
The question comes down to whether baptism is an act of man or an act of God. If it’s an act of man, then I suppose what you say makes sense. But if baptism is an act of God working on man, then baptism of infants is not just acceptable but extremely important. Not quite to the level of those-kids-will-go-to-Hell like some people claim (Because God works in his own way), but still important because baptism is a gift that the Lord has given to us. It’s God placing his claim on the one being baptized through the means of water and the Word.
Fair enough. If you start a new thread on this very subject then ping me if you would.
Not one of those verses support or command baptizing infants.
Besides, getting someone wet doesn’t save them. Water does not cleanse the soul from sin. Without the shedding of blood, there is NO remission of sins. Water ain’t blood, therefore cannot cleanse from sin.
Only Jesus can do that.
Your wishful thinking does not make it true nor does repeating yourself over and over again.
Scripture is inherently authoritative and complete based on it's being the very Holy Spirit inspired, God breathed word of God.
It is Truth, and as such, stands on its own merit.
In the gospels and epistles, Jesus is reported to have commanded the apostles and disciples to TEACH, to BAPTIZE, to EAT HIS BODY AND DRINK HIS BLOOD. In other words, to hand on TRADITION and to confect SACRAMENTS. Jesus is not reported even once as suggesting that his teaching was to be written down—let alone that writings were to be the ONLY means of transmitting his teaching.
The diabolical doctrine of sola scripture is a human invention, part and parcel of a stunted, deformed, and relatively novel caricature of Christianity.
If you start a new thread on this very subject then ping me if you would.
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Of course, my pleasure.
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Okay, let me count these up.
Logical fallacy: Appeal to age Logical fallacy: Because I said so. Logical Fallacy: Ad hominem. Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ignorance. (You’ve been doing nothing but put down one doctrine without telling us why we should believe yours.) Logical Fallacy: Demonization. Logical fallacy: Circular reasoning. Logical fallacy: False dichotomy. (Even if sola scriptura is wrong, it does not mean that your Catholic tradition is right.) Logical fallacy: Loaded words.
Grade: F. See me after class.
I don’t want to start an argument... especially when we’re both already dealing with the super-Catholic propagandists. But this is something that is very important to me, so I’ll just try to give you some verses to think about and then leave it here, okay?
And if you post in reply, I’ll read what you say and think about it, but I’m not going to respond with very much, at least not in this particular thread, unless I think that you misunderstand what I said. (If you do understand but don’t agree, I’ll just leave it at that for now.)
So anyways:
“After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.” (1 Peter 3: 19-22)
“Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2: 12)
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16: 16)
“For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” (1 Cor 12:13)
“What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6: 1-4)
That’s not to say that faith is not sufficient. But rather that the Lord loves us enough that he has given us more and more kindness than we deserve so that our proverbial cups overflow. Baptism is a gift that the Lord gives to us, pouring out the forgiveness that Christ won for us onto us and laying his claim upon us. It’s the gift that God has given to us that allows us to share in the death and resurrection of Christ—so, yes, there is the blood of Jesus present there.
Anyways, I’ll leave it at that for now.
You just blew your argument out of the water by appealing to the WRITTEN word.
Water baptism does not cleanse from sin.
The passage in Peter even says that.
*NOT the removal of dirt from the body*.
Water baptism does not cleanse the stain of *original sin* as Catholics claim.
*Original sin* is not even mentioned at all in Scripture.
It’s a fabrication.
The weakest most contradictory argument I have heard from a Catholic yet. It is laughable that Catholics only do what is explicitly taught in the NT or OT or it is human-invented dogma . You can't make this stuff up.
Matthew 15:1-9 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
Mark 7:1-13 Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands properly, holding to the tradition of the elders, and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches. And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?”
And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,“‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”
And he said to them,
“You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God) then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
Matthew 22:29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?
Psalms 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the Word of the LORD is tried: He is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
Trusting in Gods Word solely is satanic according to Art. Gods Words says His Word is tried, purified and true. Who should I believe?
Will I be doomed to Hell for trusting Gods Word too much? Will Jesus judge me harshly by rebuking me with “You should have thrown a little tradition in there, sorry”.
I... don’t think that you quite understand what I was trying to say.
The blood of Christ is the only thing that saves from sin. But what I’m trying to claim is that baptism is one of the things that the Lord set up that DELIVERS that grace of God, not that it has grace in and of itself.
I have no idea if that makes a difference to you, but I want you to understand what I’m typing, even if you don’t agree with it.
—let alone that writings were to be the ONLY means of transmitting his teaching.
Well, I hate to break it to you Art but that's how we accurately pass down information from one generation to another. They didn't have video equipment back then so writing was the best available method of accurately telling of the events at that time for future believers.
Thank you for that. I have no idea what that has to do with what I posted.I don’t see anything about tradition or or trusting in Gods Word too much but . . . thanks just the same.
OK. I was a little confused.
Thanks for the clarification.
Appealing to the authority of Scripture to support the authority of tradition?
Catholics are so cute when they act hypocritically.
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