Posted on 04/29/2017 8:02:13 AM PDT by NYer
As we pray for the success of Pope Francis’ trip to Egypt this weekend, a perfect prayer to use is the oldest known Marian prayer, which in fact, traces back to the pope’s host country.
The oldest known Marian prayer is found on an ancient Egyptian papyrus dating from around the year 250. Today known in the Church as the Sub tuum praesidium, the prayer is believed to have been part of the Coptic Vespers liturgy during the Christmas season.
The original prayer was written in Greek and according to Roseanne Sullivan, “The prayer is addressed to Our Lady using the Greek word Θεοτόκος, which is an adjectival form of Θεοφόρος (Theotokos, or God-bearer) and is more properly translated as ‘she whose offspring is God.'” This helps to prove that the early Christians were already familiar with the word “Theotokos” well before the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus ratified its usage.
Below can be found the original Greek text from the papyrus, along with an English translation as listed on the New Liturgical Movement website:
| On the papyrus, we can read: .ΠΟ ΕΥCΠΑ ΚΑΤΑΦΕ ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC AΛΛΕΚΚΙΝΔΥΝΟΥ …ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC MONH …HEΥΛΟΓ |
And an English translation could be: Under your mercy we take refuge, Mother of God! Our prayers, do not despise in necessities, but from the danger deliver us, only pure, only blessed. |
More commonly the prayer is translated:
Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.
Several centuries later a Latin prayer was developed and is more widely known in the Roman Catholic Church:
| Latin Text Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, Sancta Dei Genetrix. Nostras deprecationes ne despicias in necessitatibus nostris, sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper, Virgo gloriosa et benedicta |
English Text We fly to Thy protection, O Holy Mother of God; Do not despise our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O Glorious and Blessed Virgin. Amen. |
The prayer is currently part of the Byzantine, Roman and Ambrosian rites in the Catholic Church and is used specifically as a Marian antiphon after the conclusion of Compline outside of Lent (in the older form of the Roman breviary). It is also a common prayer that has stood the test of time and is a favorite of many Christians, and is the root of the popular devotional prayer, the Memorare.
The questions don’t; the answers do. We’re making progress, though: at least you’ve admitted Mary into the family! “Sister” is a proper title for other Christian women who are our relatives in the faith, yes. But we also see titles of spiritual genealogical descent used in the NT—for instance, Paul calls his own disciples at Corinth “dear children” and says he is their “father” (1 Corinthians 4:14), and John uses the same language when writing to his disciples (1 John 1:12f). Jesus calls Mary John’s “mother”, not his “sister”—she is not just any female believer, she is the very first female believer, the first female to hear the Gospel from the angel Gabriel (Luke 1:28). She was with Jesus before any other human being, and she is the only person who stayed with him his entire life, from birth right to the Cross. “Mother” conveys this special relationship better than “sister”—especially since she was also Jesus’ literal mother.
Mary is treated the same by Catholics and considered actually MORE sympathetic towards people than God/Jesus is.
Catholics pray to both Mary and God.
Catholics bow before images of both Mary and God.
Catholics capitalize the names of both Mary and God, something that is supposed to be reserved for Deity only.
Catholics claims that Mary was without sin, as was Jesus.
Catholics teach that Mary answers prayer as God does.
Catholics consecrate themselves to Mary, something I don't see encouraged or mentioned concerning Jesus.
No, we don't consider anyone more sympathetic to people than God/Jesus.
God is "love and mercy itself", we pray.
When we pray to Mary we are asking her to pray to God for us, which is not the same way we pray to God when in the Mass we sing the Gloria where we praise, bless, adore, and glorify Him.
I have already covered the bowing thing in a prevous post.
All proper names are capitalized in English (except for people like e e cummings), and so are proper titles, such as President Trump. No worship is implied.
Catholics claim that Mary was preserved from sin through God's grace, not through her own power--as the angel Gabriel says, she was "full of grace" (Luke 1:28) even before Jesus was conceived in her womb.
We teach that Mary can answer prayers by praying to God for us; we do not teach that she can answer them on her own.
On consecrating ourselves to Jesus, I have already mentioned the Act of Consecration to the Sacred Heart of Jesus in a previous post; and the Consecration to Jesus through Mary is also a consecration to Jesus.
I think that catches me up on all your posts to me.
I will disagree.
You *want* Mary to be your mother.
Never-the-less, God doesn’t make her your mother in Scripture anywhere.
So you are left trying to come up with lines of argument to rationalize your desires.
If it were in any way important, God would have revealed and declared it.
He did not.
He did reveal it when Jesus told John, “Behold your mother” (John 19:27). John’s own biological mother was also present at the time (Matthew 27:56), so evidently Jesus had something other than biology in mind. If it was not important, John would not have drawn attention to it, nor to the other information about Mary unique to his Gospel and Revelation. And I have already quoted numerous other NT passages that discuss spiritual parentage, which is hardly an idea I came up with. “For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother” (Matthew 12:50)—Jesus’ words, not mine.
It only passes the how deeply you’re indoctrinated to Catholicism test.
And most prayers to Mary do NOT fall into the category of asking her to pray for us. Most of them are asking her to do things for the petitioner herself.
Any google search for prayers to Mary will turn up this....”About 55,200,000 results (0.49 seconds) “
A google search of *Catholic prayers to God* turns up this.....”About 18,700,000 results (0.58 seconds) “
Even more disturbing is a google search of *Catholic prayers to Jesus* turns up this.....”About 14,500,000 results (0.61 seconds) “
Even more abysmal is *Catholic prayers to the Holy Spirit* at ..........”About 624,000 results (0.57 seconds) “
Even Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit. put together don’t get as much time or attention as Mary.
Easy.
Mary is not God’s wife. She is not deity.
360: No walking back, just explaining what she said in the context of how medieval monks used scapulars and what Catholicism actually teaches about scapulars.
361: No, "proving a negative" is arguing for the non-existence of something based on an absence of evidence. I am not arguing from an absence of evidence, I am arguing from the positive evidence of Scripture: you can search it from Genesis to Revelation and there is no prohibition against asking for prayer requests from the deceased, and there are Scriptures that support it (Revelation 5:8), as well as the historical fact that Jews and Christians have been doing it since the time the church was founded and not seeing it as Biblically problematic, post-16th-century claims to the contrary.
362: Nothing fantastic about saying faithful Christians are with God, as we see them in Revelation (Revelation 5:8, 6:10, 14:13, 20:6).
363: No, last I checked, being a fan of Tolkien and Lewis was not required to be Catholic, though it often does help.
364: Some of Mary's roles in the Bible that Catholics emphasize: she obeys the will of God ("May it be done unto me according to your word"--Luke 1:38) out of humility (Luke 1:48) and because she believes God, in contrast to Zechariah who was skeptical (Luke 1:45; cf. 1:18f); her voice makes John the Baptist leap for joy and prompts Elizabeth to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" and to proclaim that Mary is "blessed among women", which Mary echoes when she prophecies that "From now on all generations will call me blessed" and that the Mighty One will extend mercy to future generations (Luke 1:39ff); she gives birth to Jesus in a manager, a symbol of God's compassion for the poor (Luke 2:7); she brings Jesus to the temple to be circumcized, fulfilling the law of Moses as she will train her son to do, initiating a path that will cause her son to cause a falling and rising of many in Israel and and to be a sign of contradiction, and causing her own soul to be pierced also (Luke 2:21ff); she searches for Jesus and finds him teaching, and treasures his words in her heart (Luke 2:44ff); she follows Jesus all the way to the Cross unlike the disciples who fled (John 19:25f); she witnesses the risen Jesus and the ascension and prays with the Apostles for the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 1:1ff); she intercedes at Cana, prompting Jesus' first public miracle (John 2); she appears when the ark of the covenant is opened in heaven and protects the Messiah from the dragon by fleeing into the desert, enraging the dragon against her offspring (Revelation 11:19ff); but her offspring will crush the head of the serpent (Genesis 3:15). Those are a few roles emphasized in the Rosary. There are numerous others based on meditations on other Scriptural passages.
365: Not what the original post meant by "failed".
367: "Blessed are you when people insult you. . .great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."--so thanks for increasing my reward in heaven.
368: The context is the same as the one Jesus was debating with the Sadducees, whose position on the dead in general was similar to the one you are taking on Mary; and no, Rome does not teach that every believer who has died is now in heaven, but you might want to compare the passages you quote on metaphoric "sleep" with Luke 16.
369: If you're that bored, I'll sign you up for my fan club. But I doubt I'll have much time to continue this discussion during the week, so I apologize in advance for any delayed or abbreviated response.
371: You can measure the infinite mathematically in terms of set theory, as Georg Cantor demonstrated, or physically and metaphysically in terms of the contrast between potential and actual infinity and space-time and eternity, as St. Thomas Aquinas did, developing Aristotle's definition of infinity. I'd explain the quotes by reading them in the context of the original authors instead of out of context on a polemical website. Without doing an exegesis of each author quoted, what they generally mean is that Mary's prayers to her Son are efficacious and that she prays to Him to distribute His graces to us and especially the grace to persevere in faith until death. Many Protestants who have taken the time to research this with an open mind have come to see there is no conflict between Rome's official teaching and Catholic lay practice regarding Mary. Catholics don't worship her either officially or unofficially. We worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, to whom we pray when we join the angels in singing, "Gloria in excelsis Deo".
Absolutely Catholics do.
Actaully, Catholics do.
When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.... St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM
Catholics claim that Mary was preserved from sin through God's grace, not through her own power--as the angel Gabriel says, she was "full of grace" (Luke 1:28) even before Jesus was conceived in her womb.
Being full of grace does not mean free from sin. On the contrary, if there is no sin in someone's life, there is no grace God can show them.
Grace is given only to those in sin. Without sin, there is no need for grace.
Also, ALL believers have the same grace as Mary does.
Mary and Grace
http://biblehub.com/greek/5487.htm
Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”
The word grace used in this passage in Luke is used in one other place in the Bible and that is Ephesians 1 where Paul tells us that with this same grace, God has blessed us (believers) in the Beloved. IOW, we all have access to that grace and it has been bestowed on us all.
Ephesians 1:4-6 In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Greek word “grace”
charitoó: to make graceful, endow with grace
Original Word: χαριτόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: charitoó
Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)
Short Definition: I favor, bestow freely on
Definition: I favor, bestow freely on.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5487 xaritóō (from 5486 /xárisma, "grace," see there) – properly, highly-favored because receptive to God's grace. 5487 (xaritóō) is used twice in the NT (Lk 1:28 and Eph 1:6), both times of God extending Himself to freely bestow grace (favor).
Word Origin: from charis
Definition: to make graceful, endow with grace
NASB Translation: favored (1), freely bestowed (1).
No, the "most" prayed Marian prayer is the Hail Mary, which specifically asks her to pray "for" us. And asking her to "do things" *is* asking her to pray for things for us. She can't do anything for us without praying for us in Catholic theology.
No one said she was a deity. She is God’s spouse. Jesus is not illegitimate.
Prayers to Mary which disprove your claims both that Catholics pray to Mary for her to give them things, and not just to pray for them, and that Mary is considered more merciful than Jesus.
AND these prayers to MARY for salvation. They are asking her to save them and that certainly is asking her for something.
Lady of Perpetual Help Novenas
First Novena Prayer ( 1st. and 5th. Saturday)
Behold at thy feet, O Mother of Perpetual Help,| a wretched sinner who has recourse to thee and confides in thee.| O Mother of mercy, have pity on me. I hear thee called by all the refuge and the hope of sinners:| be then, my refuge and my hope.
Assist me, for the love of Jesus Christ;| stretch forth thy hand to a miserable fallen creature who recommends himself to thee, and who devotes himself to thy service for ever.| I bless and thank Almighty God, who in His mercy has given me this confidence in thee,| which I hold to be a pledge of my eternal salvation.|
It is true that in the past I have miserably fallen into sin,| because I had not recourse to thee.| I know that, with thy help, I shall conquer.| I know too, that thou wilt assist me, if I recommend myself to thee;| but I fear dear Mother | that in time of danger, I may neglect to call on thee,| and thus lose my soul.| This grace, then, I ask of thee, and this I beg, with all the fervor of my soul,| that in all the attacks of hell I may ever have recourse to thee.| O Mary, help me.| O Mother of Perpetual Help, never suffer me to lose my God.
3 Ave’s
Hail Mary , full of grace , the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, JESUS. R: Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Second Novena Prayer (2nd. and 4th. Saturday) O Mother of Perpetual Help, MBgrant that I may ever invoke thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O purest Mary, O sweetest Mary, let thy name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me, whenever I call on thee; for, in all my temptations, in all my needs, I shall never cease to call on thee, ever repeating thy sacred name, Mary, Mary. O what consolation, what sweetness, what confidence, what emotion fills my soul when I utter thy sacred name, or even only think of thee. I thank the Lord for having given thee, for my good, so sweet, so powerful, so lovely a name. But I will not be content with merely uttering thy name. Let my love for thee prompt me ever to hail thee, Mother of Perpetual Help.
3 Ave’s
Third Novena Prayer ( 3rd. Saturday)
O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. 3 Hail Marys.
http://motherofperpetualhelp.blogspot.com/2007/06/three-novena-prayers.html
*Jesus, my JUDGE*?????
Are you kidding me? A more warped view of Jesus cannot be found.
Jesus did NOT. He gave the care of His mother to JOHN. And that was all He did.
There is not a shred of evidence anywhere in the Bible that John in any way represents the entire church body in any way, shape, or form.
That *interpretation* can only be attributed to wishful thinking and a gross misapplication of that verse.
Someone developed the doctrine and needed a verse to support it and found this and claimed it worked.
It doesn't.
The only place where Christians are told they have any mother is here.
Galatians 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Which does NOT say that Mary is everyone's mother.
Being full of grace does not mean free from sin. On the contrary, if there is no sin in someone's life, there is no grace God can show them.
Even those who have not sinned personally need grace to overcome the curse on Eve's descendants--as Paul says in Romans 5:14, "death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command". All believers receive grace, but all are not "blessed among women"--Elizabeth is drawing a contrast between all other women and Mary here. The Ephesians passage is using a verbal form of the word (ἐχαρίτωσεν); the form in Luke is a gerund being used as a title of address (κεχαριτωμένη). Luke's form is similar to the verb tense of Ephesians in that it refers to a completed action, though, which highlights the significance of the angel's statement: Mary is already full of grace even though Jesus has not been born and atoned for sins yet, in contrast to every other believer who will not receive grace until after the Crucifixion.
I'm about to turn in, so will reply to any follow-up another time. Thank you for your comments.
So you're saying God had sex with Mary?
That proves NOTHING.
Then Mary was an adulteress.
Mary was married to Joseph, legally his wife, when the angel came with the Annunciation.
If she was God's spouse, what business did she have getting married to Joseph?
If she was Joseph's wife, and she was, how can Catholics call her God's spouse?
Oh, and can you give us a verse in Scripture that supports your claim? Show us in God's word where HE calls Mary His *spouse*, IOW, *God's wife*.
I see *Mary, mother of Jesus*, but nowhere did I ever see *Mary, wife of God*.
Besides, how can you Catholics call Mary *God's wife*? You all have her listed as His mother. Did God marry His mother?
Mary is God’s SPOUSE??? She’s the mother of Jesus, in His human form that He took to come and die for us. He is God incarnate. So, Mary is God the infant’s mother and God the Father’s wife??? I’d love to hear what scriptures you have to back THAT up!
BTW, the only “Queen of Heaven” the Bible mentions, is in Jeremiah, chapters 7 and 44. I suggest you read them, if you’re allowed to read the Bible by yourself. In both these chapters, the queen of Heaven is referred to as an IDOL.
I guess I wasn't all that deeply indoctrinated into it, because, almost as soon as I joined the Air Force, and got away from my parents, I departed the fix, outbound (a little air traffic control lingo there). 😊 but I hung around the RCC for a few months, then walked out, NEVER to return. Later, I found the real Jesus, as opposed to the Jesus of the cults, which is a Jesus that does not exist. Praise God for my salvation, which I am 1 million percent sure, is mine. 😷😱☺️😄
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