Posted on 02/09/2017 5:25:06 PM PST by grumpa
Many Christians understand the book to have been written around AD 95/96. They simply take this late date for Revelation on faith, without ever checking it out. But there is strong and convincing evidence that the book was written prior to AD 70 when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. Over 130 authors, from different theological persuasions, have been identified as holding to a pre-AD 70 date, during the latter years of the reign of Nero, who ruled Rome from AD 54 to 68.
The argument for the late date of Revelation rests principally on a single AMBIGUOUS, THIRD-HAND comment by the second-century church father Irenaeus (c. AD 180). Scholars have puzzled over how to understand his comment, which can be interpreted in different ways, and there is considerable contrary evidence. This one blurb from Irenaeus is pretty much all the late daters have. Irenaeus, by the way, is known to have made other historical and theological errors, which the interested reader can explore on the Internet.
Actually, John, the author of Revelation, probably died prior to AD 70. . . .
(Excerpt) Read more at onedrive.live.com ...
The verse I believe you are referring to comes from the book of Acts (Acts 4.12), a book written by Luke and a verse quoting the Apostle Peter.
See comment #60 above.
Funny. I should have clarified, “one’s mindset”......
It might also suggest that Revelation was created by a much later Roman writer for whom the events in Jerusalem held little cultural significance. The refernce to Nero could be explained as a look back in anger or resentment to the decadence and failure of an eariler Roman administration in the same way that we still critize the policy failures of FDR or LBJ today.
We know that by the late 2nd Century Rome was already in irreversible decline with the silver content of the Denarius reduced by 1/3 from the time of Nero. With that kind of inflation and social erosion, the writer may have felt that the end of the world was already at hand.
“So Jesus did not inspire Paul to write that...Well sure, I believe that...”
Apparently it was PBS!
HaHaHa...
“It might also suggest that Revelation was created by a much later Roman writer for whom the events in Jerusalem held little cultural significance. “
No. If there was a “much later Roman writer”, then EVERYTHING in Revelation would have “held little cultural significance.” Seven churches in Asia, Judaism, the Temple, Jerusalem, the Jewish/Christian concept of angels, Heaven, apocalyptic genre - all of it.
Also, the idea that “the events in Jerusalem held little cultural significance” to a Roman makes no sense when you realize they built this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_of_Titus
“The refernce to Nero could be explained as a look back in anger or resentment to the decadence and failure of an eariler Roman administration in the same way that we still critize the policy failures of FDR or LBJ today.”
Again, no. Since the author uses Nero = 666 and that only works in Greek from a Hebrew original, the chances it was a Roman author is zero. How many authors would even bother to write a Jewish/Christian book in Greek let alone one that was reliant on Hebrew coded numbers?
“We know that by the late 2nd Century Rome was already in irreversible decline with the silver content of the Denarius reduced by 1/3 from the time of Nero.”
We might know that, but that doesn’t mean they understood it that way. Also, the Roman Empire really only died in 1453 when Constantinople fell. Even Rome really only fell in the 5th century - more than 300 after Revelation was written.
“With that kind of inflation and social erosion, the writer may have felt that the end of the world was already at hand.”
Doubtful since at that time Rome was enjoying a relatively stable period which would last for another 200 years.
There’s no evidence that the author was a “much later Roman”. Why would he write in Greek about Jewish/Christian things and ignore the most obvious of Jewish/Christian things while doing it?
What is the first historical reference to the book?
“What is the first historical reference to the book?”
It doesn’t matter since no reference in the book shows the author was a “much later Roman”.
... he said, scuttling for cover
“... he said, scuttling for cover”
No cover needed and the fact that you’re not even attempting to make an argument proves my point.
You know (or should know) the first dates of reference for this book.
“You know (or should know) the first dates of reference for this book.”
You should know you keep proving my point.
Please.... The last remaining western Roman office was vacated in the mid 5th Century, but the Denarius was worthless by 270.
“Please.... The last remaining western Roman office was vacated in the mid 5th Century, but the Denarius was worthless by 270.”
So now you’re going back to earlier posts rather than make an actual argument? Thanks for - once again - proving my point.
Also, if the denarius was worthless by 270 that hardly explains why it still took another 140 years for Rome to be occupied by a Visigothic army. Also, Flavius Julius Nepos, the de jure last Emperor of the Western Roman Empire died in 480 so how could the last Western Roman office have been vacated in “the mid 5th Century”? You’re almost 3 decades off. Even if you use the traditional end of the Western Empire - September 4, 476 - when Odoacer overthrew Romulus Augustus (who by the way lived for at least 30 more years) you are still off by some years.
The one you're avoiding. If you can tell me when the book is first referenced then we'll have the basis for discussion. I'll check in later.
Irenaeus spends a good chunk of Book V of Against Heresies discussing Revelation as yet future. In one chapter (30) he gently rebukes those who tried to make predictions on the 'name' of the beast.
Seems to me the Christian community of the time (2nd Century AD) thought fulfillment of Revelation would come in their time (sounds familiar) or yet future.
Here on number of the beast:
Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 30)
1. Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end)—I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.]
[...]
3. It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear.
Against Heresies Book 5, Ch 30
To further the view that Irenaeus, in the 2nd Century AD, did not believe Revelation was fulfilled before his time, we see in Book 5 chapter 29 the following:
Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 29)
1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons "as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance— in fact, as nothing;" Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." [Matthew 24:21] For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 29)
Continuing with early Christian external writings of a post 70 AD Revelation fulfillment of tribulation and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is the Didache (late 1st-early 2nd century AD):
Didache 16
16:1 {Be watchful} for your life; 16:2 {let your lamps not be quenched and your loins not ungirded, but be ye ready; 16:3 for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh.} 16:4 And ye shall gather yourselves together frequently, seeking what is fitting for your souls; 16:5 for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you, if ye be not perfected at the last season. 16:6 For in the last days {the false prophets} and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate. 16:7 For as lawlessness increaseth, {they shall hate one another and shall persecute and betray. 16:8 And then} the world-deceiver {shall appear} as a son of God; 16:9 {and shall work signs and wonders,} and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; 16:10 and he shall do unholy things, which have never been since the world began. 16:11 Then all created mankind shall come to the fire of testing, and many shall be offended and perish; 16:12 {but they that endure} in their faith {shall be saved} by the Curse Himself. 16:13 {And then shall the signs} of the truth {appear;} 16:14 first a sign of a rift in the heaven, then a sign of a voice of a trumpet, and thirdly a resurrection of the dead; 16:15 yet not of all, but as it was said: 16:16 {The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. 16:17 Then shall} the world {see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.}
Two very early post apostolic writings which look to a yet future unfolding of prophetic events in the Gospels and Revelation. Completely destroys the full and partial preterist theory from early external sources.
“The one you’re avoiding.”
No one has to avoid what doesn’t exist. Make an argument or don’t. Your choice.
“If you can tell me when the book is first referenced then we’ll have the basis for discussion. I’ll check in later.”
Make an argument or don’t. It’s not up to me to do the work for you. If you had something worth posting, you would have done it.
My parents, among others I have known, sometimes had a hard time understanding Daniel...
Absolutely.
Seems like prophecy is only really understood in hindsight, once it's been fulfilled.
So my approach to a lot of stuff is*wait and see*.
What I really have problems with is the Pentecostal stuff where everybody and their brother are making *prophesies* and usually they are wrong, and then they go and make all kinds of excuses about why the prophecy didn't happen. Usually it's blame shifting by adding contingencies later *Well, It really depended on if you were obeying God.* or some such nonsense.
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