Replies

A shallow conclusion. Abraham was a man and so was Joseph. And one of the attributes of God is that He is: Acts 10 34 ¶Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: If God is no respecter of persons, then Abraham should be condemned by the same judgement you throw at Joseph Smith.

What shallow, logically fallacious reasoning! Sharing racial attributes does not translate into either equality of character nor necessarily into sanction of a shared practice, and not being a respecter of persons refers to not treating men based on their race/color/nationality - as the LDS did regarding blacks - versus faith and character. Muhammad was also a man and polygamist, but which does not justify his manner of polygamy and doctrine any more than it does Smith's based on a basic shared aspect with Abraham. Absurd.

Or is it your conclusion that God can command a prophet to have more than one wife? Or any man for that matter…

God could allow this and did, but why do you continue to persist in arguing as if I argued contrary to what i clearly denied, "as i nowhere called or argued that Smith was carnal because he was a polygamist. His carnality is abundantly evidenced besides his manner of polygamy, while God always was God, and is not a product of eternal progression, with multiple wives."

Why the little digs? It’s a sign of weakness…seriously… “Elitist Smith” does that make you feel better or something?

It is not some little dig, but a rebuke of your foundational argument, that Smith was a prophet of God, yet who asserts that all the churches were wrong and all their creeds were an abomination to God, and Smith was the thus the elitist restoratationist, which necessitated a new revelation and papal-like assertions. The distinctive similarities of errors to Rome do not stop there.

I would love to have at least one civil conversation with someone on this forum… but I doubt it will ever happen.

When you argue for a elitist church whose words are as Scripture but which fundamentally contradicted it, then you are the one being as arrogant as many RCs here. And as the owner himself has stated that Joe Smith was a false prophet and his book is false gospel does not want it taught on FR as gospel, then you can call him arrogant as well.

I have no doubt that Joseph contradicted the meaning you project on scripture.

Then you must demonstrate how it is a projection, verses what Scripture actually teaches.

In everything, God dictates His will to man. God will never accept the will of man given to God. The books of the Bible were mainly written by prophets under the direction of God. However, the list of books that were accepted to be in the Bible was a product of men. There were no prophets present when the Bible was compiled. It is man dictating to God what scripture should be.

Rather, the very texts which the Lord Jesus and NT church invoked were discerned and progressively established as being of God, as was further revelation as complementary and conflative, where wannabe additional "revelations" by wannabe additional "prophets such as Muhammad and Smith stand in clear contradiction to that of the prior revelation they invoke to give authority to their own.

And as a result, you have that absolute chaos that is called “Christianity”.

WRONG. The divisions are not due to different Bibles, except to some degree with Catholicism, but are mainly due to elitist heads, or liberal views of Scripture, while those who hold most strongly to the authority of the Bible as the accurate, wholly inspired word of God are the most unified major religious group in basic beliefs. Groups such the Watchtower society and the LDS have stronger unified due to unScriptural cultic allegiance to leadership, and which have been historically reproved by evangelicals due to commitment to the shared beliefs of the latter.

I don’t know, like grabbing up some poor traveling preacher and throwing him down concrete stairs… or baptizing babies, sprinkling for baptism, ordaining women, thinking you’re already saved, marrying homosexuals, pedophile priests, etc… on and on…

All of which are exposed as contrary to Scripture by evangelicals here, as have the demonic deceptions of Mormonism.

God however, knowing all things, had His prophets compile other books of scripture. This would be a sign of the true Church of God.

Conversely, contradicting the Scriptures (and itself) it even professed to be of God was and is a sign of a false church.

The Book of Mormon together with the Bible and living prophets have perfect continuity.

Which is another bombastic assertion. Dream on.

How is that Jesus had to be anointed by God to do these things? What was He before He was anointed?

What desperation! This was in regards to His commission on earth, in which the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world, and is no way contrary to Christ being the Divine Son of God from eternity, (Mic. 5:2) as God is, (which is His position by nature, but who took upon the nature of Abraham. And who taught that God is a Spirit, (John 4:24) the essential nature of which is not that of flesh bones. (Lk. 24:49)

Your spurious over-use of the words “fallacious and absurd” is both tedious and tiresome.

Because they are entirely repeatedly fitting.

If you expect an answer to a question, then ask it as a question and not as a rhetorical response to a question of mine.

So "Do you really think you can equate Joseph Smith to Abraham? Do you???" is merely rhetorical, while "do you also believe Abraham was a carnal prophet who is in Hell?" is not?

Your arrogance in calling me a fool has really taken away any desire to continue conversing with you…

Such liberal recourse does not change the facts.

Sharing racial attributes does not translate into either equality of character nor necessarily into sanction of a shared practice, and not being a respecter of persons refers to not treating men based on their race/color/nationality - as the LDS did regarding blacks - versus faith and character.

Did someone mention BLACKS?

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.

Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'

August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."
"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."
"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)

1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."

We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.

According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.

Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.
The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."
(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).

When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."

When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."
(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)

Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)

Conversely, contradicting the Scriptures (and itself) it even professed to be of God was and is a sign of a false church.

Did SOMEONE say CONTRADICTING??

Trinity:

found in the Book of MORMON ----------- rejected in the Doctrines and Covenants

Book of Mormon:

Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No. (Alma 11:28-29)

...and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. (Alma 11:44)

...doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31:21)

...praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. (Mormon 7:7)

...power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son--And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, (Mosiah 15:3-5)

...of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them. (Ether 2:8)

"Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name." (3 Nephi 9:15)

"And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you. Verily I say unto you, that whoso repenteth of his sins through your words and desireth to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye baptize them--Behold, ye shall go down and stand in the water, and in my name shall ye baptize them. And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying: Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. And then shall ye immerse them in the water, and come forth again out of the water. And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one ; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one...And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one ." (3 Nephi 11:22-27, 36)

Doctrine and Covenants:

According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest. (Section 121:32)

And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God. And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them--Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths--then shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (Section 132:18-20)

Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods. (Section 132:37)