Posted on 03/12/2016 9:36:07 AM PST by Salvation
Perpetual virginity
3/9/2016
Question: I am a lifelong and devout Catholic and have always considered Mary to be ever virgin. But recently, I read in my Bible that Joseph had no relations with Mary “before” she bore a son (Mt 1:25). Now, I wonder if our belief does not contradict the Bible.— Eugene DeClue, Festus, Missouri
Answer: The Greek word “heos,” which your citation renders “before,” is more accurately translated “until,” which can be ambiguous without a wider context of time. It is true, in English, the usual sense of “until” is that I am doing or not doing something now “until” something changes, and then I start doing or not doing it. However, this is not always the case, even in Scripture.
If I say to you, “God bless you until we meet again.” I do not mean that after we meet again God’s blessing will cease or turn to curses. In this case, “until” is merely being used to refer to an indefinite period of time which may or may not ever occur. Surely, I hope we meet again, but it is possible we will not, so go with God’s blessings, whatever the case.
|
|
In Scripture, too, we encounter “until” being used merely to indicate an indefinite period whose conditions may or may not be met. Thus, we read, “And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death” (2 Sam 6:23). Of course, this should not be taken to mean that she started having children after she died. If I say to you in English that Christ “must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (1 Cor 15:25), I do not mean his everlasting kingdom will actually end thereafter.
While “until” often suggests a future change of state, it does not necessarily mean that the change happens — or even can happen. Context is important. It is the same in Greek, where heos, or heos hou, require context to more fully understand what is being affirmed.
The teaching of the perpetual virginity of Mary does not rise or fall on one word, rather, a body of evidence from other sources such as: Mary’s question to the angel as to how a betrothed virgin would conceive; Jesus entrusting Mary to the care of a non-blood relative at this death; and also the long witness of ancient Tradition.
I see your one reference and give you a dozen. They do not all agree. Some say yeah, other say nay.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/1-25.htm
The word ‘till’ (untill) does not mean NEVER DID. It means UNTILL.
(Young's Literal Translation) 2 Samuel 6:23 As to Michal daughter of Saul, she had no child till the day of her death.
If I say, "I'm going to abstain from chocolate until Lent is over.", does this mean I will have chocolate after lent? It means I could without breaking my word, but it does not mean that I will.
The word until makes a claim up unto a certain point. That is perfectly clear. The word until does not necessarily make a point about after a certain point. Using "modifiers" to explain "time disparity" in the original language is a better argument than using English and common sense.
But the point is that using the word "until" is not a slam dunk to debunk the ever virgin status of Mary.
God can not be tempted...Jesus endured all kinds of temptation just as we are...This couldn't have been possible if Mary had been a perfect, sinless creation...Jesus got his human nature from Mary...If Mary had a nature that was different from all other humans, Jesus would have also...
This is significant since we are told by God that we, as his children can go to Jesus any time we need to get comfort and mercy because he understand us; he went thru what we go thru on a daily basis...
We can see Catholics have a problem with this since for them, Jesus for the most part is unapproachable...For us Jesus is as approachable as our parents or siblings...
They call Jesus their 'friend' but how do you have a friend when your clergy tells you that you can not have a personal relationship with the person...The term 'friend' then is meaningless...
So I do see it as important to having a relationship with God...I don't believe Catholics have a relationship with God...
I guess that means Jesus is going to be alone in heaven.
Not sure what your point is here. I believe Mary was not ever virgin, but I also believe that the Bible is not clear on the matter.
In the apostles creed, Jesus was "born of the virgin Mary". This is a tenant of faith. The virginal status of Mary after the fact has exactly zero to with salvation. If you believe otherwise, why?
I think you read too much into simple statements...
I believe as you do.
Mary’s perpetual virginity is a trail that leads off into the weeds. Im just trying to keep myself on the path and help others.
I dont want others to have to explain to God Why they put a statue of His mother under a used ceramic bathtub in their front yard. ...and why they have been running to her for help for centuries when Jesus specificlly told us to run to HIM.
And why did Joseph take her as his wife even when he knew that her babe was not his? So God could pull a fast one on the watching community, that her babe would not be identified as a bastard for lack of a husband, or that her babe was not of fornication with Joseph before the year-long pre-nuptial betrothal had passed according to the custom of insuring that she was a virgin at the formal consummation?
No. God does not play lying games.
Joseph married Mary in order that Jesus could be counted as David's legitimate royal heir, though Joseph refrained while that time of proof of her virginity right up to the babes birth passed, and all could witness thereto.
You'd better think out what all this means, particularly in view of the cultural context.
Nor does it prohibit another child being born.
Because Jesus was to be born of a virgin. That's the important part. That's what scripture addresses.
To tease us with Biblical conundrums? Heh.
I've wondered myself. I know in some cases, humans have a problem of looking for answers where God doesn't give any.
You'd better think out what all this means, particularly in view of the cultural context.
It seems pretty clear. Born of a virgin. David's heir. Is there something else I'm missing?
I try to avoid the trap of the rationalizing mind, or at least understand that I'm dealing with hypotheticals rather than theology. I know what I need to know and I believe what scripture plainly teaches. Adding any human rationalization on top of scripture is fun and interesting, but not a basis for truth.
I always try to separate personal ideas from scriptural truths.
Speaking of personal ideas... Was Jesus Joseph's son genetically? There is no reason that the Holy Spirit couldn't have used Joseph's DNA as a template when Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Others have argued that Jesus' DNA was entirely from Mary and that means Jesus was an XX chromosome male. Lots of people might have lots of ideas, but it's not important other than a curiosity.
No< I was asked an incredibly stupid question, and gave the only answer that seemed appropriate.
verga:Why yes there is; thank you for asking. Holding a bloody sword in one and the still beating heart of my enemies in the other.
Why am I not surprised?
A reading:
Exodus 32:1 When the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people gathered themselves together to Aaron and said to him, “Up, make us gods who shall go before us. As for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.” 2 So Aaron said to them, “Take off the rings of gold that are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people took off the rings of gold that were in their ears and brought them to Aaron. 4 And he received the gold from their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool and made a golden calf. And they said, “These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!” 5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the Lord.” 6 And they rose up early the next day and offered burnt offerings and brought peace offerings. And the people sat down to eat and drink and rose up dto play.
7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves.
21And Moses said to Aaron, “What did this people do to you that you have brought such a great sin upon them?” 22 And Aaron said, “Let not the anger of my lord burn hot. You know the people, that they are set on evil.
*I was just kidding* You just can’t take a joke.* says every playground bully
I see that references to classical literature are wasted on some people. Of course it seems like only the non-Catholic/ anti-Catholics are the only ones that missed it.
I saw a movie once, called a Flame in the Wind. It was about that very thing.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.