Posted on 03/12/2016 9:36:07 AM PST by Salvation
Perpetual virginity
3/9/2016
Question: I am a lifelong and devout Catholic and have always considered Mary to be ever virgin. But recently, I read in my Bible that Joseph had no relations with Mary “before” she bore a son (Mt 1:25). Now, I wonder if our belief does not contradict the Bible.— Eugene DeClue, Festus, Missouri
Answer: The Greek word “heos,” which your citation renders “before,” is more accurately translated “until,” which can be ambiguous without a wider context of time. It is true, in English, the usual sense of “until” is that I am doing or not doing something now “until” something changes, and then I start doing or not doing it. However, this is not always the case, even in Scripture.
If I say to you, “God bless you until we meet again.” I do not mean that after we meet again God’s blessing will cease or turn to curses. In this case, “until” is merely being used to refer to an indefinite period of time which may or may not ever occur. Surely, I hope we meet again, but it is possible we will not, so go with God’s blessings, whatever the case.
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In Scripture, too, we encounter “until” being used merely to indicate an indefinite period whose conditions may or may not be met. Thus, we read, “And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death” (2 Sam 6:23). Of course, this should not be taken to mean that she started having children after she died. If I say to you in English that Christ “must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (1 Cor 15:25), I do not mean his everlasting kingdom will actually end thereafter.
While “until” often suggests a future change of state, it does not necessarily mean that the change happens — or even can happen. Context is important. It is the same in Greek, where heos, or heos hou, require context to more fully understand what is being affirmed.
The teaching of the perpetual virginity of Mary does not rise or fall on one word, rather, a body of evidence from other sources such as: Mary’s question to the angel as to how a betrothed virgin would conceive; Jesus entrusting Mary to the care of a non-blood relative at this death; and also the long witness of ancient Tradition.
Wiggles have been found from cover to cover.
Cloudy - foggy here.
Vatican business don’tchaknow.
The Word tells us He laid down His life on His own initiative.
However, as evidenced in this the passage from De Montfort, the emphasis, as it always seems to be in roman catholicism, is on Mary.
So you see what you are up against in discussing "ever virgin" or any other aspect of Mary.
The Wiggles? Fruit salad....yummy, yummy!
This stuff just CONTINUALLY gets tossed out to the unsuspecting and it gradually just piles up.
Mary is GOD!!
When you point out what the RCC says about Mary, many Catholics are taken aback....for a minute or two. But Popes have made visits to the grave of DeMontfort.
yep!
It says, "He never ate chocolate until after he ate it the first time".
I clearly said the example was imperfect. If you really care about this, you need to read the original language. The word that was used has been translated as "until", but if you look at the original language it is a word that does not make any pronouncement about the future. It really means "up until this point" and then it is silent. You can argue based on an English translation, but that is faulty.
Many believe that the Bible is not definitive about the ever virgin status of Mary. Luther himself believed that Mary was ever virgin. But the important point is that the ever virgin status of Mary was left out of the Lutheran confessions for two reasons. First, the Bible is not definitive either way. Second, it doesn't matter a wit regarding theology.
Today, in the confessional Lutheran churches, there are those who believe Mary was ever virgin and there are those who believe she was not. But no matter what, both believe it does not change the gospel and has no impact on our relationship with God or with our salvation.
That's not how it works. Firstborn is a title with rights and privileges that does not require a second.
I believe Mary had other children, after Jesus was born, but you are right, it has no affect on our salvation, or our relationship with God.
Then why does this thread have over 600 hits?
Catholics add tradition. Others make theological arguments based on an English translation without considering the original language.
I too believe Mary had other children. First, I believe that Joseph and Mary were married in the true sense. Second, I believe that Mary was a Godly woman and performed her marital obligation.
Amen bro.
Your imperfect example does not convince me. One word does not a sentence make.
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1850 King James Version w/Strong’s Concordance
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till (G2193) she had brought forth her firstborn (G4416) son: and he called his name JESUS.
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G2193- _heos, heh’-oce;
of uncert. affin.; a conj., prep. and adv. of continuance, until (of time and place):—even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-) til (-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while (-s).
In this sentence, this tells of the uncertain time there was in place that Joseph and Mary did not have sexual relations. The modifier is a preposition and as such pre suposes that the action taken (not having sex with her husband) happened before something else (the birth of Jesus.)
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G-4416. prototokos, pro-tot-ok’-os;
from {A.}G-4413 and the alt. of {B.}G-5088; first-born (usually as noun, lit. or fig.):—firstbegotten (-born).
{A.} G-4413. protos, pro’-tos;
contr. superl. of G-4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance):—before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.
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In this sentence, this modifier explains the time disparity referenced earlier in the same sentence.
The word ‘till’ (untill) does not mean NEVER DID. It means UNTILL.
When one believes those things about Mary, one gets pulled into the spirit of that belief.
We are certainly called to believe. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved".
“has no impact on our relationship with God or with our salvation.”
Every breath I take has an impact on my relationship with GOD.
Jesus is not interested in the luke warm drippings in the bottom of the dishwasher. They will be cast aside.
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