Posted on 10/24/2015 9:52:17 AM PDT by Salvation
Msgr. Charles Pope
Question: A friend of mine is forever mentioning Fatima. What am I, as a Catholic convert, to make of this? Am I required to accept it?— Name withheld, Austin, Texas
Answer: There is probably no other prophecy so well attested and verified as that of Our Lady of Fatima. That said, the Church has never required Catholics to believe private revelations as a matter of faith. The Church, however, does hold up for the faithful certain apparitions, devotions and private revelations as worthy of acceptance and pious adherence.
The teachings of our Lady at Fatima in 1917 have proven trustworthy and been verified both by signs and by the simple fact that they all came true. Her warnings of dire consequences if we did not pray and convert have sadly proven to be accurate. She warned of another, more terrible war (World War II). She said Russia would spread errors, and she warned a pope would be struck down.
These messages were verified by two signs predicted by Our Lady. The first was the miracle of the sun, where more than 70,000 people saw the sun dance and move as if falling from the sky. She also spoke of great lights in the sky that would serve as a final warning before the terrible war of which she had warned. Those lights appeared all over Europe just before Hitler invaded Poland in the form of a stunning display of the aurora borealis.
A third secret spoke of a bishop dressed in white garb who would be martyred. Many link this to the assassination attempt on Pope St. John Paul II, wherein he escaped full martyrdom by the prayers Our Lady had asked for.
A final and belated prophecy from Fatima seems to have come in the form of a letter written by Sister Lucia dos Santos to Cardinal Carlo Caffarra. The year was 1981 and, according to the transcript of an interview with Cardinal Caffarra, she wrote the following:
“[T]he final battle between the Lord and the reign of Satan will be about marriage and the family. Don’t be afraid, she added, because anyone who operates for the sanctity of marriage and the family will always be contended and opposed in every way, because this is the decisive issue. And then she concluded: however, Our Lady has already crushed its head.”
And once again, the prophecy seems accurate, because this is exactly where we are. So, while belief is not required, it does not seem rational to reject these apparitions, either, due to the evidence. Finally, it never hurts to pray for peace and the conversion of sinners, which is the fundamental request of Our Lady of Fatima.
“Mary has tremendous influence over roman catholic church doctrine.”
Actually, none. It is what Jesus did for her that is important.
“There are four marian dogmas with a fifth on the horizon. Mary is considered mediatrix and co-redemmer. We have catholic writings that claim she answers prayers when Christ won’t or prayers can get answered quicker if the catholic goes through her.”
Again, that is all about what JESUS DID FOR MARY. It shows no influence of Mary over doctrine at all.
“When you say Mary apparently has no influence over church doctrine I question your statement.”
Go ahead. As we’ve seen before someone can state the absolute truth here and an anti-Catholic will question it anyway.
“Are they different people?”
Mary is not different than Mary.
“If roman catholicism has placed so much reliance upon Mary and attribute to her all they have.....”
No. All “reliance” on Mary is reliance on a means established by Christ. Also, anything attributed to Mary by the Church is because of Christ.
“you best do what she says! To not do so would be to dishonor “her” as we’ve been told on these boards numerous times.”
And, again, anyone who says that doesn’t even understand what this is about.
“This brings us back to mary worship.”
Since there is no Mary worship among Catholics no one here can go back to it.
“You can deny it all you want. But the statues, the prayers to mary, the writings about mary, etc, etc, say otherwise.”
No, actually they don’t. Once again, as we’ve seen before someone can state the absolute truth here and an anti-Catholic will deny it anyway.
“If Mary=apparition and apparition=Mary, the type of scapular, or anything else said by the apparition, is irrelevant. The message is coming from “mary” in either case be it Fatima, Guadalupe, Rue du Bac, La Salette, etc.”
I’m sorry, but that just sounds like babbling. Are you actually trying to make a point?
“Herein is another lie. Christians do not entrust themselves totally to her protection.”
That wouldn’t be a lie anymore than hyperbole in the Bible is.
“Christians rely totally upon Christ for their protection, salvation, forgiveness, etc.”
Yep, and those who really love Jesus also know they can entrust themselves to Mary.
“Paul notes this in Romans 8:31-35 (NASB)”
And?
“What I see is catholics rely upon Jesus AND Mary for their salvation. Your statement confirms that.”
No, it doesn’t. My statement is absolutely clear: “It’s just we know He has given us gifts to aid in our salvation”. If Jesus is the one giving the gifts, then salvation is ultimately His to give. Mary works for Him. He made her who she is.
“If Mary is for your benefit you best get your brown or green scapular and do what she says!”
And, again, we see you apparently don’t understand, but attack anyway.
“Christians rely only upon Christ.”
And we do - and the gifts He gives us since they are His. Every time you open up your Bible or pray remind yourself that you just denied that you rely on them for anything.
“I notice you left out one very, very important person in your list of aids in our salvation.”
No. I didn’t leave Him out. He is not an aid. He IS salvation. That’s what His very name means. My gosh, don’t you know that?
“He has given us the Holy Spirit as our Helper.”
Yes, an Aid, a Comforter, a Consoler, the Paraclete.
“That is very telling.”
What is telling is that you apparently don’t know Jesus IS salvation.
“I do buffet my body as did Paul....I get in the boxing ring.”
Punch drunk?
“Yep, and those who really love Jesus also know they can entrust themselves to Mary.”
Tell us more! You may be on to something here. Go ahead and share how we, too, can “entrust” ourselves to Mary.
Yes, an Aid, a Comforter, a Consoler, the Paraclete.
Yes...and catholics have "mary" replacing the Holy Spirit in many of these capacities when no where in the NT is there any admonition to pray to "mary", rely upon her, seek her protection, wear pieces of clothing or other articles that will "protect them from the eternal fire" as "mary of the apparition" have instructed catholics, or any of the other false attributes catholics have assigned to "mary".
That roman catholicism continues to allow these false teachings is the lie. It is a false teaching.
Punch drunk? Hardly.
“Tell us more! You may be on to something here. Go ahead and share how we, too, can “entrust†ourselves to Mary.”
Read a book on it. And remember this key principle: It’s done through the power of Christ and could not happen without Him.
“Yes...and catholics have “mary” replacing the Holy Spirit”
Nope. We have none who replace the Holy Spirit and don’t want any who would (as if any could). The Holy Spirit helped make Mary who she is.
“in many of these capacities when no where in the NT is there any admonition to pray to “mary”, rely upon her, seek her protection, wear pieces of clothing or other articles that will “protect them from the eternal fire” as “mary of the apparition” have instructed catholics, or any of the other false attributes catholics have assigned to “mary”.”
We don’t falsely attribute anything Mary. God gave her what He gave her. You can’t change that no matter how much you complain about it.
“hat roman catholicism continues to allow these false teachings is the lie. It is a false teaching.”
We have no false teachings at all. The false teachings are all yours.
“Punch drunk? Hardly.”
No, it seems to be the case. That would explain all of your errors.
I LOVE IT, make up your own rules as you go along...Christ died for every sin that I committed, so therefore I can pretty much do as I please...WHOO-HOO...lookmout world, here I come......protestantism is great....
you are correct, but her prayers to her Son on our behalf can. As Catholic, you KNOW that the Nicene creed is the belief description of the Catholic church and Mary is mentioned only as His mother. Mary is honored by Catholics as the most significant woman ever born and as such, bestowed with unique gifts from God....can't handle that, along with the Consecration of bread into the Body, Blood, soul, and Divinity of Christ....I feel very sorry for you, you ignore one of God's greatest gifts to mankind.......Billions and Billions of people know it, but you have your own way of doing things,,,,,O.K. I guess.....but VERY sad
Not true at all, believe it or don't...your choice, but if you're not Catholic, and have no dog in the race, what do you care about it at all???.....kind of a mind your own business question.
“When the fifth Marian dogma is approved that will be the confirmation of the apostasy of roman catholicism.”
1) There’s no indication that any so-called “fifth Marian dogma” will be defined - ever.
2) You’re making a mistake if you think any definition will mean what anti-Catholics usually mistakenly and ignorantly say it would.
I LOVE protestants and atheists....they spend hours of time and a tremendous amount of effort trying to disprove a reality....the Catholic church is the one and only true church of Christ, founded personally by Him, on Peter and the apostles. It has existed, challenged a few times by various heretical groups, nothing serious, until the protestant revolution. Then they, after 1,600 years of MORE than extraordinary success teaching and protecting the word of God by the Catholics, decided that they could change the rules, change the Bible, and pretty much plan their own road to salvation........LOTS OF LUCK!!!!!
“Christ died for every sin that I committed, so therefore I can pretty much do as I please...WHOO-HOO...lookout world, here I come......”
Everyone does as they please, PERIOD. It’s only the influence of the Holy Spirit that can get any of us to sin LESS. If even one nano-sin was left unsettled by the Cross work of Christ then we are TOAST.
But oddly, your statement sounds like those who slandered Paul:
“And not rather (as we are slandered, and as some affirm that we say) let us do evil, that there may come good? whose damnation is just.”—Romans 3:8 DR
I certainly hope you aren’t in the same group as those people, sincerely.
When we run across the concept here on FR--repeatedly--it's quite legitimate to "prove the spirits, whether they are of God". Fatima is found wanting, so there really is no comme ci comme ca approach available concerning the apparitions.
Her prayers cannot save anyone.
It’s an individual decision and between the person and Jesus.
What’s really sad is that billions and billions of people don’t have enough trust in God and don’t believe Jesus’ own words enough that PROMISE that if we pray to the Father, HE will hear and answer our prayers HIMSELF.
Those billions and billions trust Mary more than they trust God.
VERY pathetic.
There isn’t a Christian I know who thinks this way.
>>24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life (John 5:24 NASB). <<
I LOVE IT, make up your own rules as you go along...Christ died for every sin that I committed, so therefore I can pretty much do as I please...WHOO-HOO...lookmout world, here I come......protestantism is great....
Care to explain what is "made up" about what Christ said?
13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Colossians 2:13-14 NASB)
http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/
“Perhaps you need to read up on this.”
Why? I know more about it than you probably ever will. And nothing I said was incorrect. You’ll just have to deal with that.
Are you in favor of this or against?
“Are you in favor of this or against?”
Neither. Since no definition has been formally proposed it isn’t an issue at this time and might never be in my lifetime.
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