Posted on 10/24/2015 9:52:17 AM PDT by Salvation
I presume you’re wearing your brown scapular today and everyday if you believe in the marian apparitions??
Just because Jesus sometimes spoke figuratively doesn’t mean He always did. It is up to each individual person to interpret when He does which. I interpret “This is My body” to mean “This is My body” based on context, reaction of those present, and later references by the apostles. That my interpretation happens to differ from yours doesn’t make it wrong as you have no authority to dictate my beliefs. If you are allowed your interpretation, then you must allow me mine.
Love, O2
“I presume you’re wearing your brown scapular today and everyday if you believe in the marian apparitions??”
Nope. It’s a choice, not mandatory for anyone. I once wore a green scapular - years ago - but no longer do.
Is this your way of avoiding actually pointing out even one single “lie” from Fatima?
Also, as catholics are not assured of Heaven (from what I've been told on these boards), if I were catholic, based on the promise made by the apparition that, "Those who die wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire." (btw...this is the lie for if it were true then you and every catholic should be wearing it!) ,then betcha I'd have that thing on every minute of the day.
Now for Christians, we rely upon the one time and final sacrifice of Christ who died on the cross for us and makes this promise to us:
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life (John 5:24 NASB).
“Nope....I was just curious as catholicism places so much emphasis on these marian apparitions,”
It really doesn’t. Fatima, for instance, is not mention in the CCC even once. The Marian apparitions are very popular among Catholics of manifestations of God’s will through Mary to human beings, but no Catholic doctrine is based on them.
“I was curious if you followed what she said to do.”
As a Catholic I am not required to do anything that anyone says in a private revelation unless that private revelation was to me or meant specifically for me.
“Also, as catholics are not assured of Heaven (from what I’ve been told on these boards), if I were catholic, based on the promise made by the apparition that, “Those who die wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire.” (btw...this is the lie for if it were true then you and every catholic should be wearing it!) ,then betcha I’d have that thing on every minute of the day.”
You’re wrong on both counts. 1) Even if Mary meant it as you apparently think, that doesn’t mean every Catholic would wear it. 2) The Church has always taught that no one should assume wearing a scapular IN ITSELF means someone is going to Heaven. As Michelle Arnold of Catholic Answers has noted:
begin paste:
First of all, the original promise of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel to St. Simon Stock regarding the brown scapular had nothing to do with the small scapular many Catholics commonly wear today. At the time, the Carmelite order was trying to establish itself in Europe and was facing opposition. Many in the Church thought the Carmelite hermits who had moved into Europe from the Holy Land should join the current religious orders in Europe rather than maintain their own order. There was also a lot of contention over the Carmelites’ habits, which were remarkably different from the habits of the European orders of the time.
St. Simon Stock, an early superior general of the Carmelites, sought to adapt the Carmelites’ hermitic life to one similar to the mendicant friars such as the Franciscans and Dominicans, but while retaining the Carmelite identity. According to tradition, the Blessed Virgin appeared to St. Simon holding a large, full-body brown scapular similar to the one Carmelites wear today and gave it to St. Simon as the habit of the Carmelite order. It was to this brown scapular that the promise was attached. Later, smaller scapulars suitable for wearing by laypeople were approved by the Church as a sacramental.
If we are to take Our Lady of Mt. Carmel’s promise in a strictly literal fashion, we’d have to say that the wearer of the scapular must wear the Carmelite habit. But this obviously isn’t the case. And, in truth, the promise shouldn’t be taken strictly literally. The promise is dependent upon the wearer’s desire to meet his Catholic obligations, to do his best to lead a virtuous life, and to work with the graces made available to him through the sacraments of the Church and through the brown scapular. If he refuses to do that, his wearing of a brown scapular is little more than pious superstition. Certainly it is not in any way a guarantee of heaven.
These days, many in the Carmelite order continue to promote wearing the brown scapular but downplay the promise that “Whosoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fires” precisely because of the superstitious means by which too many promote it. The scapular I currently wear, which was made by local Carmelite nuns, does not use that particular phrase but instead says: Behold the sign of salvation; put on the Lord Jesus Christ. http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=505051
end paste.
“Now for Christians, we rely upon the one time and final sacrifice of Christ who died on the cross for us and makes this promise to us:”
As a Christian I too rely on Christ’s grace and Christ’s grace alone - whether I wear a scapular or not. And I have nothing against people wearing scapulars. It’s not required. And in itself it won’t get a single person into heaven if they are relying on it rather than Christ. And that’s exactly what the Church has always taught.
So, we see that you were wrong again. You were wrong about the following:
1) “catholicism places so much emphasis on these marian apparitions”
2) Apparently assuming that a Marian apparition was everyone rather than a private revelation (”I was curious if you followed what she said to do.”
3) “Also, as catholics are not assured of Heaven”. That’s a partial truth: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation . Protestants are not absolutely assured of Heaven either. Their heretical teachings, however, teach that they are. Not all Protestants believe this, however: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternal-security.htm
4) “(btw...this is the lie for if it were true then you and every catholic should be wearing it!)”
That’s a logical error on your part. You cannot assume something is not true just because human beings are not following through on it. Jesus is the Savior. How many reject Him? MILLIONS. Is Jesus then the “lie”? No, He is THE TRUTH.
5) “Now for Christians, we...”
If you’re assuming only people who agree with your latter-day invented by man doctrines are Christians, then you’re terribly mistaken. Christians were here long before you, long before Protestantism, and will be here long after your dead and forgotten.
Five errors in one post. Par for the course, right?
It all comes under the umbrella of Mary worship by catholics and that is the error catholics cannot see.
So the apparition, who catholics claim to be the mother of Christ, makes a clear promise on the scapula, and then a catholic has to "clear up" and explain what the clear words of the apparition meant???? Hilarious!
Somebody at catholic hq must have gotten a bit worried about to have to put out a statement to explain what the apparition said.
Does this mean all promises made by the apparitions are not true?
If that's the case why even bother with this?
Tell you what, ya'll keep relying upon Mary and Christians will reply upon Christ.
I'll continue to place all of my faith in Christ for my eternal salvation as promised by Him.
That promise has been around for almost 2000 years and will continue to be for eternity.
“Yeah, no emphasis on these apparitions but we have numerous threads on them, the roman catholic church expends a lot of time and energy on them. etc.”
As I said, they are popular with many Catholics, but apparently have no influence over Church doctrine at all. Hence, Fatima, which is undoubtedly popular among Catholics shows up nowhere in the Catechism.
“It all comes under the umbrella of Mary worship by catholics and that is the error catholics cannot see.”
Except there is no “Mary worship” - and anti-Catholics have made and been refuted on that charge literally thousands of times here at FR.
“So the apparition, who catholics claim to be the mother of Christ, makes a clear promise on the scapula, and then a catholic has to “clear up” and explain what the clear words of the apparition meant???? Hilarious!”
No, what happened is that YOU claim Mary made a clear promise on a particular scapular when it was another scapular (please note correct spelling of scapular: if you’re going to attack it you should at least be able to spell it). I, for instance, needed nothing “cleared up” for I always got it right from the beginning. And all the Catholics I know who wear scapulars and who I’ve talked to about them know the proper use of scapulars.
“Somebody at catholic hq must have gotten a bit worried about to have to put out a statement to explain what the apparition said.”
Nope. Catholic Answers is a private concern. That’s who Michelle Arnold worked for. CA is not “hq”. The Catholic Church hasn’t said anything about the brown scapular in 14 years. And last time it did, all it said was this:
The Brown Scapular and other Scapulars
205. The history of Marian piety also includes “devotion” to various scapulars, the most common of which is devotion to the Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. Its use is truly universal and, undoubtedly, its is one of those pious practices which the Council described as “recommended by the Magisterium throughout the centuries”(255).
The Scapular of Mount Carmel is a reduced form of the religious habit of the Order of the Friars of the Blessed Virgin of Mount Carmel. Its use is very diffuse and often independent of the life and spirituality of the Carmelite family.
The Scapular is an external sign of the filial relationship established between the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother and Queen of Mount Carmel, and the faithful who entrust themselves totally to her protection, who have recourse to her maternal intercession, who are mindful of the primacy of the spiritual life and the need for prayer.
The Scapular is imposed by a special rite of the Church which describes it as “ a reminder that in Baptism we have been clothed in Christ, with the assistance of the Blessed Virgin Mary, solicitous for our conformation to the Word Incarnate, to the praise of the Trinity, we may come to our heavenly home wearing our nuptial garb”(256).
The imposition of the Scapular should be celebrated with “the seriousness of its origins. It should not be improvised. The Scapular should be imposed following a period of preparation during which the faithful are made aware of the nature and ends of the association they are about to join and of the obligations they assume”(257).
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20020513_vers-direttorio_en.html
So, again, we see that you’re completely wrong. That fact won’t actually give you pause, however, will it?
“Does this mean all promises made by the apparitions are not true?”
No. Since you didn’t even get the promise right in the first place it doesn’t make the promise wrong, just you.
“If that’s the case why even bother with this?”
Couldn’t we say the same thing - and be correct! - about your constant attacks on the Church? You made - as I showed - no fewer than 5 errors in your last post, and yet here you are again making more errors. Why would anyone bother doing so?
“Tell you what, ya’ll keep relying upon Mary and Christians will reply upon Christ.”
I am a Christian and I rely on Christ - and He made His mother who she is for her benefit and mine.
“I’ll continue to place all of my faith in Christ for my eternal salvation as promised by Him.”
I do too - as does every Catholic I have ever encountered. It’s just we know He has given us gifts to aid in our salvation: Himself, the Church, the sacraments, the saints, Sacred Scripture - all are for our salvation. I see no reason not to take advantage of those gifts.
“That promise has been around for almost 2000 years and will continue to be for eternity.”
Yes, and you’ll probably continue to reject so many of things He offers you to help you. You may find yourself in the situation St. Paul himself worried about: 1 Corinthians 9:27.
Mary has tremendous influence over roman catholic church doctrine. There are four marian dogmas with a fifth on the horizon. Mary is considered mediatrix and co-redemmer. We have catholic writings that claim she answers prayers when Christ won't or prayers can get answered quicker if the catholic goes through her.
When you say Mary apparently has no influence over church doctrine I question your statement.
Apparition=Mary Mary=apparition
Are they different people?
If roman catholicism has placed so much reliance upon Mary and attribute to her all they have.....you best do what she says! To not do so would be to dishonor "her" as we've been told on these boards numerous times.
This brings us back to mary worship.
You can deny it all you want. But the statues, the prayers to mary, the writings about mary, etc, etc, say otherwise.
If Mary=apparition and apparition=Mary, the type of scapular, or anything else said by the apparition, is irrelevant. The message is coming from "mary" in either case be it Fatima, Guadalupe, Rue du Bac, La Salette, etc.
>>The Scapular is an external sign of the filial relationship established between the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother and Queen of Mount Carmel, and the faithful who entrust themselves totally to her protection...",
Herein is another lie. Christians do not entrust themselves totally to her protection.
Christians rely totally upon Christ for their protection, salvation, forgiveness, etc.
Paul notes this in Romans 8:31-35 (NASB)
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
I do too - as does every Catholic I have ever encountered. It’s just we know He has given us gifts to aid in our salvation: Himself, the Church, the sacraments, the saints, Sacred Scripture - all are for our salvation. I see no reason not to take advantage of those gifts.
What I see is catholics rely upon Jesus AND Mary for their salvation. Your statement confirms that.
I am a Christian and I rely on Christ - and He made His mother who she is for her benefit and mine.
If Mary is for your benefit you best get your brown or green scapular and do what she says!
Christians rely only upon Christ.
I notice you left out one very, very important person in your list of aids in our salvation.
He has given us the Holy Spirit as our Helper.
That is very telling.
I do buffet my body as did Paul....I get in the boxing ring.
Indeed. Here it is:
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (2 Thessalonians 2:9)
Scripture only teaches we are to look to and pray to one being in Heaven, and it is not the holy Mary, much less the counterfeit Mary of Catholicism .
To no created beings except idols are given anything near the adulation, superlatives, titles and attributes to ascribed the Mary of Catholicism, including those which belong to God alone.
For the devil always seeks to provide a counterfeit, even if it speaks mostly truth, to which extreme devotion is fostered, but which takes away from the glory and heavenly focus which being to God alone - which the devil despises, and the unscriptural Marian type devotion to and trust in created results in the devotees following the critical error of created beings.
Such cultic devotion was given to the only Queen of Heaven in Scripture, a pagan one, which the devil reinvented for those who reject Scripture as the supreme authority, and are seduced by the psychological appeal of a Heavenly Mother.
Heaven is God's throne, not earth, and Scripture states that there is only one heavenly intercessor btwn God and man, (1Tim. 2:5) who ever lives to do so, and only points us to Him as the one who can be both touched with the feeling of our infirmities and enable us to overcome them, as He alone was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin. (Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16) the God be the glory.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
The apparition that called itself Mary leads people to another claimed path of salvation.
Since we know that there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we MUST be saved, we know that the apparition is a lying spirit.
It was not Mary and anyone who puts any stock in what it said is following deception.
The Hail Mary is far from being the only prayer to Mary out there that Catholics pray and many of them have Catholics vowing to serve her and entrusting their souls to her, to their great loss.
Mary can save NO ONE.
Caths are told they cannot honor her to excess, and they do, yet imagine that they are not crossing the invisible line into worship, but that that is what their manner of devotion is seen in Scripture as.
RCs are told they can choose to accept or reject the whole Fatima thing but non-Catholics are scolded if they don’t believe in it. Go figure!
Oh, most excellent observation!
Well, I guess the bible is wrong again...
At the end of the Tribulation the final battle will happen because Satan forced people to take the Mark of the Beast and worship him...Nothing at all about marriage and family...
And even then it's not the final battle...The final battle takes place a thousand years beyond that...And that one has nothing to do with marriage and family either...It has to do with God's authority...
And then she concluded: however, Our Lady has already crushed its head.”
That's crazy talk...
1Pe_5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Satan's head is not crushed...We are living in his kingdom...
God tells us how it's going to end...Why would you take the word of 3 little kids (over the word of God) who conversed with a ghost...No doubt an unclean spirit who was posing as the mother of Jesus???
Well, there you go again.
Making sense on the RF......
The failed prophecy makes this apparition a false prophet.
God's standard is 100% accuracy.
It sounds no different than all the excuses the Pentecostals use when their prophecies fail.
Well Stated. Amen.
Yep. We are to test the spirits. This one has been tested and has failed. Catholics would do well to take note.
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