Posted on 10/24/2015 9:52:17 AM PDT by Salvation
Whose sins that YOU shall forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins that YOU shall retain, they are retained......what do you suppose He was talking about???and for 2,015 years true Christians have believed and followed His instructions....the revolutionaries, however.....well, we'll do it our own way!.
Catholicism teaches no such thing...redemption is a GIFT from God and is available to all who accept it.
We are, however, fully free to reject the gift and it is by our actions that we either accept or reject His gift.
Seven Sacraments were outward signs, established by Christ, to assist us in our efforts to recognize God's gifts and accept them without reservation.
You see people, everyday, gifted with intelligence, ability, opportunity, misuse these gifts and basically tell God to buzz off.....They have every right (free will) to do so, but with a little effort, they would use these gifts to come closer to God, assist others to do the same, and justify their existence on Earth.
That was my point, you have no responsibility for anything that you do, Christ has already taken care of that so no matter what lifestyle you live, all is well............I don't think so.
Repeating what has been refuted may serve to pacify RCs but it simply will not make her deformation true. The Cath eucharist remains absent in the life of the church in Scripture, as detailed, and thus RCs resort to soliloquy, or require us to submit to Rome in order to understand the Bible.
Understanding fatima.
catholics are often too blinded by the works based religion they adhere to so that they cannot even comprehend or admit (if they ever awaken to the truth) that they are working to be worthy yet claiming they are avoiding giving up the Grace by following a dogmatic justification trail that does not exist in Real Christ ianity. It is common to souls not born from above to be unable to see that what they are trapped in is a works based system, and it is not Christianity. The hook is deeply embedded in their prided of self, even imagining they can be good enough to be worthy. Your assertions are not surprising. If a catholic is ever born from above, these pride spikes will suddenly be obvious to him/her. Satan doesn’t want to allow the trapped to have that revelation, so he continues to stroke their pride. The great lie that you can continuously sacrifice Jesus by your priests’ mass begavior is such an insult to Grace, for Jesus allowed Himself to be sacrificed ONCE, for all, for all time. He is not under catholic priest powers to be continuously sacrificed and applied or not by the ‘priestly class’. It is indeed sad to see catholics so completely clueless regarding the heart and Grace of Christianity.
One proof that the sacrifice was once for all, for all time, is the application of His blood to those who lived before He even took a body. The faith of Abraham was counted for him righteousness ONLY because Christ died once for all, even Abraham. Sad that so many catholics are unable to comprehend that reality and be born from above.
It is clear you did not see the connection of God communicating that He would put His Spirit and cause one to walk in His statutes, with “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
Christ explained to Nicodemus clearly born of the Spirit is an action of God not man.
The dialogue in John 3 confirms the promise of Ezekiel 36.
What is the official interpretation of the Catholic church for these passages?
And what do you have to refute my original point that God promises to cause one filled with His Spirit to walk in His statutes?
“Penance” is still absent from the text.
Jesus said “forgive” He did not give instructions on what a repentant sinner is supposed to ‘do’ for church leaders to gain forgiveness.
Meting out penance is not seen in the NT. We do see rebuking, reproving and correcting a brother for sin to lead them to repent; we see church leaders remove the unrepentant from fellowship with the hope of restoration.
We also see the promise of a loving Heavenly Father who will chastise His children.
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them;and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Christ explained to Nicodemus clearly born of the Spirit is an action of God not man.
and yet the Evangelical model for this seems to me to be the Sinner's Prayer or the Four Spiritual Laws. Do you deny the Sinner's Prayer and Four Spiritual Laws are how Evangelicals tell people to be born again ?
The dialogue in John 3 confirms the promise of Ezekiel 36.
The writers of the New Testament did not cite the passage in Ezekiel to which you refer. The promise in Ezekiel is to the house of Israel.
What is the official interpretation of the Catholic church for these passages?
And what do you have to refute my original point that God promises to cause one filled with His Spirit to walk in His statutes?
Post 103: " I believe a lot of the answers you seek to questions posed can be found in Ezekiel 36. This is where God promises to indwell a believer, put His statutes on their heart and cause them to walk in them. Jesus was teaching this to Nicodemus in John 3. "
What was the spiritual condition of Nicodemus when he came to Jesus by night, as revealed in John 3? ... A catholic apologist’s answer will be different than the actual state of him, because there are two very different perspectives. I’m curious how you would identify the spiritual state of Nicodemus when he came to Jesus, noit after he had heard the message.
Saint Nicodemus came seeking truth, and he found him, so Jesus, the one by whom grace and truth came from God. gave Nicodemus more truth, which he stumbled over (not unlike those disciples who stumbled over the real presence of His Body further along in the book). The Messiah told Nicodemus, and thereby us (thanks to his apostles and the one holy catholic apostolic church), that one must be born again (from above) to see the kingdom of God, and born of water and of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. I would say his state at that point was not saved yet. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
John, Catholic chapter three, Protestant verse two,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
bold emphasis mine
Discussion yesterday:
Our Lady told of the great evil that would come from Russia: Communism.
But wait a minute, Russia isn’t communist anymore.
Yes, but the West is!
Many years ago a Sister of Charity (the sisters who taught us) told us a story of someone, I think a priest, who was on his way to bring the Eucharist to a person who was ill. He dropped the container and the host fell out.
You guessed it. The host started bleeding on the sidewalk.
Indeed.
I fully agree, Nicodemus was not a born from above member in God’s family when he arrived to speak with Jesus and seek Truth. Was all the service and education and teaching of others and restricted behavior, not deviating from the ritual pathway, was all that of importance to get Nicodemus born from above?
You continue to change the subject. I quoted OT and NT Holy Scriptures. That’s the sum of it. Yet you want to discuss the sinners prayer and the 4 spiritual laws. Show me where such is in the language of my posts?
Answer...not there. I can only assume you wish to be a contentious man.
If you desire to view a sinners prayer, the Holy Spirit provided us quite a few. The following my favorite:
Psalm 51King James Version (KJV)
51 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
King James Version (KJV)
by Public Domain
Your comments on Ezekiel 36 are partially correct. They are for the house of Israel. Which Chirst opened for all nations as prophesied in the OT, confirmed by Christ in Luke 24, and fulfilled in Acts.
Which Christ opened for all nations as prophesied in the OT, confirmed by Christ in Luke 24, and fulfilled in Acts.
Your contention is partially correct, and yet there is no reference to Ezekiel in the New Testament, nor is there explicit language in Ezekiel to support your contention. However, there are, at least, some crumbs and kernels in Ezekiel with a promise for the goyim/Gentiles/heathen/nations, i.e., that they shall know He is the LORD when He is sanctified in Israel before the heathen's eyes. That, perhaps, fits well with Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty five. Howbeit, Jeremiah and Isaiah are more explicit of the hope of the nations to join His people Israel, but I find the sweetest promise in Zechariah. I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand. Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof. And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him, And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: For I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her. Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord. Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon. For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me. Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. Be silent, O all flesh, before the Lord: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation. other sheep
Zechariah, Catholic chapter two, in its entirety,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James,
bold emphasis mine
There are a lot more of these! Who knew?)
I think the Fatima event made "Seeing Mary" more popular. The article about "Rorschach Icons" was interesting.
I wonder if people could somehow be imagining these things? Or maybe someone else is setting the scene for some reason.
< /sarc>
I see our differences. I was applying Biblical exegesis.
You keep using the term “Evangelical Model.”
The only such model I am aware of is the NT.
Some pastors and teachers do use methods to communicate the Gospel. The two you mention I am familiar with but are not doctrine. I have also not seen such used in church, in preaching and witnessing the Gospel.
Maybe you can start a thread on the sinners prayer and the 4 spiritual laws to break them down and see if such have standing in scriptures.
I would gather we would most likely cover a good portion of the Gospels, Romans and Hebrews in our discussion.
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