Posted on 06/15/2015 2:49:32 AM PDT by Cvengr
DOCTRINE OF SALVATION BY WORKS
Eph 2:8-10
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Why do you twist what scripture says?
Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Your statement "we can still turn our backs on God" is NOT in that verse. Nor is it what the verse says is falling from grace. Hasn't your entire premise been that we need to follow "laws" of work to be justified? "you who seek to be justified by law".
"We are placed in the state of Grace by baptism" ... Whose Grace is so powerful that it can choose you for Saving?
"... and must remain there by our deeds." So, this power to place you in Grace is only powerful enough to lift you to it but not powerful enough to keep you in it? Sorry, Jesus taught just the opposite. You are addressing justification, so lets see how that measures up to what Jesus taught:
Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. [So, before we get to the meatier passages, God in Jesus tells men that if they accept Him, accept His Justification, but turn away from that Justification, that man is not fit for the Kingdom of Heaven. James is cited by many works based religion folks to assert that therefore working good works aids in being saved. Not so, for Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be Born from Above. It is not possible for you or me to position ourselves 'above' to aid in this birthing. It is the miraculous WORK of God only. A man looking back from this birthing is not fit for the family. BUT WAIT, there's more.]John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [The passage is written so emphatically that we may safely assert that you are included in that 'no man' proclamation. Thus the one in the previous verse who puts his hand to the plow while looking back is seen as not actually putting his FAITH, his faithing *the verb form) in Jesus, so he is not included int he 'no man' because he would not come into God's hands. But why is this so emphatic to assert that once saved, once justified by God's Judicial Proclamation, 'No MAN' can defeat that soteriology? ... There's more!.]
Matthew 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [Justification is assured by the two hands of God holding the faither in His Promises. One looking back is not faithing in the Promises because he second guessed the Promises, that is what 'looking back' signifies. From such an one, no good deeds are possible, But why? why can't an unsaved person do good deeds worthy of merit in God's sight? ... Oh yes, there's more.]
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [ Do you recall what Jesus told the Youngman who came to him asking 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?' The Youngman addressed Jesus as 'Good Master' and Jesus replied, 'Why callest thou me good, there is only one who is good.' You see, only those works are good which have origin in the only one who is good. But wait! There's more yet.]
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. [In this New Covenant which God instituted and sealed with His Son's blood, once fore all, it is God in you who generates the 'good works' fit for the bema judgment seat. If any man present wood, hay, and stubble, the Shekinah Glory of God will burn it off leaving just that which God has Born from Above. 'If any man's works be burn ... but he shall be saved yet as by fire.' And now there is but one more to go ...]
John 6:28-29 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” [THAT is what God requires for Justification, that we believe/faithe in Him whom He has sent! And what is it to faithe (the verb form) in Him? Well, 'Faithful is He that calleth you to salvation for He will aslo do it. But many are called to this salvation but few are the chosen. Why? Because so few will let Him do it. Do what?... Be God in them. And when they do allow God to be God in them, they have a new want to, they do good works mete for their salvation, worthy of their salvation. These works are not wood, hay and stubble.. They're gold, silver, and precious stones. AND GOD is fashioning His New Jerusalem with these worthy things.]
Can you see why your assertion is off the mark? We remain in God's Grace because He declared us righteous due to our faithing in Jesus finished work. we cannot remain in God's Grace by some work we do before or after He declares us Righteous because of His Son. To believe you have anything to do with this miraculous work and declaration from God is to blaspheme the efficacy of His blood which seal the Covenant and is attributed to you when you believe in Him.
Our believing, our faithing, in Jesus is not the righteous work, the Work of His blood sprinkled on the mercy seat for all who will believe Him is the righteous work. That concludes Justification. THEN begins the work in raising up the new born in the Way that they should go.
The process is called sanctification by Protestants whom I have studied. It has an element of having the' works done as a newborn and older' weighed, not judged int he sense of Judging in a court. This weighing is done at the Bema Seat of Christ in Heaven. The event takes place in Heaven, so those having their 'works' weighed are already saved, already in Heaven.
Yet some will be saved as by fire, for they will have nothing that they let God do in them. 'He calleth, He will also do it.' Those who are IN HEAVEN yet are without worthy works are the ones who did not let God be God behaving IN THEM. They thought they could drink his blood and constantly confess something already dealt with and put away at the Mercy Seat. They tried to work themselves into worthiness. Such will be saved yet as by fire. But FIRST, to even get to the Bema Seat, one must believe He is The Savior, and trust Him as sole proprietor of Justification for you.
Your comment:”It is commanded. Being obedient is not a good work, it is the expected of His family members”
So Not being obedient to God’s laws are not evil works (sin)? Do we have free will to either follow the commandments of God or not?
You must be confused: Work (definition Webster’s Dictionary) n. activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something; sustaining physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective.
The only time you actually do see the words faith and alone together in a sentence is in James 2:24, where James says, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”. (James 2:24)
Why is this important? In the story about Judgment Day, (Matthew 25:31-46) where Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, the only questions that Jesus asks the multitude concern works:
1. Did you feed the hungry?
2. Did you clothe the naked?
3. Did you give a drink to the thirsty, etc.
If they answered “no” to these works in Matthew 25, then Jesus said that they were going to hell. Nowhere does Jesus ask, “Did you accept me as your personal Lord and Savior?” So, you can infer from all of this that just confessing with your lips that Jesus is your personal Lord and Savior is NOT ENOUGH (deathbed conversions are a different standard), although it is a great start on your salvation journey!!
The Book of James, in the Bible, says that your faith must be justified by works (James 2:24), which is much different from what Paul says in Galatians 2:16 about “We may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law
“Good work is nothing other than obedience to the will of God.” Obedience is obedience. It is fidelity. Good works are the raising up function of the Holy Spirit in you. It is not obedience. Obedience to the law (and that is honestly what you allude to) places you under the law’s condemnation. THAT is not for the family of Jesus in this New Covenant.
“Salvation is based on God’s judgement and mercy.” If you are awaiting the judgment of your works to obtain His Mercy, you will perish in your sins. Jesus estanlished a NEw Covenant that is not performance based. You are touting a performance based way to please God. That does just the opposite, it brings His wrath upon those who reject the FINISHED WORK of Jesus. Asserting that you drink His literal blood int he Eucharist immediately rejects HIS FINISHED WORK because you are assenting to doing it again and again. Do you see what happened to Moses for doing that at the Rock?
Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Yet Catholics would claim there is condemnation. Go figure.
Your comment: “You have to work to attain it. it’s works based, not based on the finished work of Christ on the cross which is complete and needs no amending. “
Yes Christ opened he door to heaven, and we must walk through the door by following God’s will with our faith and doing good works that please Him. That is earning it the hard way with His graces by loving God and our neighbor.
If you don’t work, you can’t accomplish God’s will. Try it, perhaps your genuine faith in God will increase.
You erroneously proclaimed, 'Nowhere does Jesus ask, “Did you accept me as your personal Lord and Savior?”' Friend, THAT issue is no longer available to those Jesus is addressing at the end of the Great Tribulation. THAT ISSUE is to be settle now, for today is the day and this is the hour. If you reject Him now, that option of His Grace in Christ will no longer be offered to you. You will die in your sins and when Jesus speaks to you and you claim all these charitable works, He will say to you because you rejected Him in you now 'Depart from me, I never knew you.'
I referred to God’s laws:
Faith gives you the graces to follow God’s will and keep His Commandments.
B.Verbal Works.
C.Ritual Works.
D.Psychological Works.
E.Corporate Works.
F.Religious Works.
G.Behavioral Works.
H.Emotional Works.
——————————————————————————————I am with you 95 percent as far as your definition of works in each category of works are concerned.
It is just religion and has nothing to do with faith.
And while most protestant Churches teach against the works of the law they do have works of all the category’s mentioned.
B.Verbal Works.
I do not fully agree
Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If you hate it why would you not be sorry you did it? any believer who is not sorry for some of the stupid things they have done just have not did anything.
But then maybe I take the cake in being stupid.
1 john 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
John 14
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
All of the above verses suggest there are works that real believers will do.
Believers are spiritual Israel.
Gal 3:29 KJV) And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Yet on the Works versus faith arguments these are never mentioned which is a big question mark for me.
Why did Jesus spend so much time talking about them if we are not to pay them any mind?
In fact they are the works believers will do because it is put in their hearts and mind to do them.
Hebrews 8
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
What are the laws that were put into the hearts of Gods people?
Matthew 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Jesus goes to some length in explaining how works does show love for our neighbor.
Luke 6:31
Luke 10:25-37
Matthew 25:31-46
Remember
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Again I am fully aware that our works do not save us.
But i think it would be most beneficial to explain that the things Jesus told us to do are also works and should not be assumed to be in the same category as all of the religious works.
Perhaps this post to stonehouse will help you comprehend the simplicity of the Gospel of the Grace of God in Christ. There is no grace plus works for Justification. There is only Faith. Then the being raised up a newborn in the way that you should go begins, by the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. Your Redeemer does not have any shortage of cash. He has paid the full price for you but you must accept it as the full price or insult His Grace. Your works to add to faith, in order to obtain Salvation/Justification is an insult to His SUFFICIENCY.
The doctrine that you can lose your salvation???
It's there...
The doctrine of faith + works???
It's there...
There's even a doctrine of works without faith...
It's in there...
Once saved always saved???
It's in there...
Faith without works???
It's there...
Predestination of the sinner???
It's there...
Free will???
It's there...
Plus some other things...
That's why so many people believe so many different things...That stuff is in there...
There's only a couple of ways to work it out...One is to try to explain away or ignore those scriptures that don't agree with your doctrine, or, keep studying to find out how it all fits together...
So is non obedience to God’s laws (Commandments/Will)an evil work (sin) or not?
If non obedience is an evil work, then obedience to God’s will is a good works (necessary for our salvation). Certainly our good works are inspired by the Holy Spirit and the graces that we receive. We still have free will to do either good or evil. Do you disagree with this?
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days ... Another example of how viewing the Bible with dispensational lenses is helpful.
Jesus took him where his own flawed reasoning planted him and raised him to a new understanding. But if Nicodemus had been obstinate enough, he could have remained gnarled up in his own illogic.
Jesus told Nicodemus, 'Except a man be born of water AND The Spirit' I believe Jesus was referring tot he water of physical birth then the birth by the Spirit of God, to be born from above. Once you are born into His family, the relationship with God is completely different, a family relationship, of intimacy by love, God's nature IN US.
You keep trying to slide back into a relationship under the old covenant, a performance based covenant. That is not the hallmark of the Church Age. It is a hallmark of Catholicism, however.
Another example of how viewing the Bible with dispensational lenses is helpful.
IF you ever get born again, you will suddenly see the urgency of leading the lost out of their ‘isms’. You call it slinging bodily fluids. That says a lot about a perspective, for the things of the Spirit are foolishness to them who are perishing.
I disagree with your statement: “Your works to add to faith, in order to obtain Salvation/Justification is an insult to His SUFFICIENCY.”
I do agree that The sacrifices and death of Christ opened Heaven to all of us. That our Baptism and following God’s will enable us to join Him in Heaven.
Do you not accept free will that allows one to sin (and lose our salvation by our works) even after you accept faith in Jesus? An example is Judas. Even Peter denied Jesus three times.
Perhaps you are familiar with Matthew 25:31-46 about Judgement Day.
Do you dispute the the Gospel of James 2:24?
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