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How Can the (Catholic) Church Teach Angels?
Catholic Answers ^ | March 15, 2015 | Tim Staples

Posted on 05/20/2015 2:41:37 PM PDT by NYer

In John 5:43, Jesus declared:

I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

With the advent of Protestantism and the confusion that followed, and that continues to this day, Christians, outside of the Catholic Church, have, at best, an incomplete understanding of the power of these words. When Jesus says, “I come in my father’s name,” he reveals the nature of the authority he possesses from God, the Father.

We use this phrase—at least, the “in the name of” part—similarly in modern parlance in law enforcement when a police officer may say: “Stop in the name of the law!” In this context the idea of “in the name of” meaning “by the authority of” comes across clearly. But because we have thousands of different religious sects today all speaking “in the name of Jesus,” this phrase has lost some of its punch, so to speak, in modern times.

But make no mistake about it: What Jesus was saying in John 5:43 is this: He comes “in the name of the Father,” which means he speaks with the final and infallible authority of his Father. He leaves no back door open. No wiggle room. If you reject him, or his teaching, you reject the Father! That is the kind of authority Jesus is revealed to have received from his Father in Scripture.

What I find fascinating in speaking with non-Catholics about this is almost all of them agree with a Catholic understanding here when it comes to the authority of Jesus. But here is what they almost universally miss: Just about every time the New Testament reveals the radical nature of Christ’s authority, you will find in close proximity Christ then giving a similar authority to the Church.

Matt. 28:18-20:

… All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age (the implication is go with my authority).

John 17:8:

Right after Jesus says in verse 2, “Thou (God, the Father) hast given him (Christ) power over all flesh…” he then says, “For I have given them the words which thou hast given me…”

Luke 22:29:

After saying, “As my Father has appointed a kingdom for me,” he then immediately says, “…so do I appoint for you, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

John 20:21-23:

Jesus said to them (the apostles) again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit…”

Luke 10:16:

In the context of Jesus saying “he who rejects me rejects him (the Father) who sent me,” Jesus said, “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

John 16:26:

And finally, when Jesus speaks of himself speaking with the authority of the Father or “in the name of the Father” in John 5:43, he then prophesies that after the coming of the power of the Holy Spirit, “The hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures but tell you plainly of the Father. In that day you will ask in my name

Further, we see explicit references in Scripture to the authority of the Church being the final authority given by God to the world.

Matt. 18:15-18:

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I Tim. 3:14-15:

I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark (foundation) of the truth.

Notice, this last text is given in the context of St. Paul describing some of the offices of the Church; namely, the bishop and the deacon (i.e. earlier in chapter 3).

St. Paul's Letter to the Ephesians

The above represent very plain texts. And there are many more we could consider. But for our purpose here, consider St. Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. In chapter 1, St. Paul says plainly that the Church is the fullness of Christ in the world today; thus, to reject the Church is to reject Christ:

Eph. 1:20-23:

[God] raised [Christ] from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

In chapter 2, St. Paul tells us the Church is the foundation of our faith (specifically, it says "the apostles and prophets" are the foundation, with Jesus Christ "being the cornerstone"), similar to what he said in I Tim. 3:15:

Eph. 2:19-20:

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.

In chapter 3, St. Paul speaks in the loftiest terms of the nature of the teaching authority of the Church:

Eph. 3:8-10:

To me… this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.

St. Thomas Aquinas speculates as to the truth behind this text in his commentary on Ephesians:

The means through which the manifold wisdom of God is made known to [the angels] is designated by his saying “through the church.”

St. Thomas then explains that the angels are far superior to men on earth, when it comes to knowledge, as are the saints in heaven, I would add, through the beatific knowledge that they possess. However, he explains, it is because of the fact that the Church is the instrument of God that her certain teachings have God as their first principle; hence, the Church can truly be said to “teach angels.” He goes on:

Therefore, it must be asserted that the angels are instructed through the church, that is, through the apostolic preaching… in such a way that they are not taught by the apostles, but in them

... angels know natural things in two ways. They know them in the Word… and they know them in their own proper natures… Further, there exist certain intelligible patterns [operative in] the mysteries of grace which transcend the whole of creation. These intelligible patterns are not impressed on the angelic minds (that would be through the beatific vision) but are hidden in God alone. Thus, the angels do not grasp them in themselves, nor even in God, but only as they unfold in events [which the mysteries] effect.

To put it simply, angels know all they can know of God and their own natures through their perfect natures, the gift of grace, and the beatific vision. So, how could they possibly learn anything? They can learn because when it comes to how God’s grace is going to work in the world of humans, a world alien to them, the angels can and do learn. But as St. Thomas says, this “learning” does not come through the inferior human nature; rather, it comes through the divine gift of God operating in the Church. As St. Paul said in Ephesians 3:10, “through the church, the manifold wisdom of God is made known to the [angels].”

Think about it, folks. If the Church teaches angels who have the beatific vision, how much more do we puny humans need to heed the authority of the Church! Imagine the scene, say, at Vatican II. The bishops of the world were not the only ones gathered for the 21st Ecumenical Council. The angels of God were gathered as well, saying, "What are they going to say next?"

St. Paul then guarantees us (no matter what our Mormon friends may say, who claim “the great apostasy!”) that this Church he is describing will exist “in every generation world without end” in Eph. 3:21.

He then tells us even further that this Church would be characterized by its unity: It would teach:

…one Lord, one faith, one baptism… (Eph. 4:5)

And it would be hierarchical:

Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”… And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God (Eph. 4:8, 11-13).

So why did God give us this glorious Church that possesses the authority of Jesus Christ?

So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine… (Eph. 4:14)

The history of Protestantism is one of “children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine.”

 



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: angels; catholic; catholicanswers; catholicchurch; timstaples
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To: metmom

Again, not a dig. God is the final judge.


261 posted on 05/23/2015 9:58:03 AM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: smvoice

Courtesy ping.


262 posted on 05/23/2015 9:59:48 AM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: Grateful2God; metmom

Why are you giving me a courtesy ping on post 247, Grateful? This is metmom’s post..


263 posted on 05/23/2015 10:02:10 AM PDT by smvoice ("Now is the accepted time; now is the day of salvation" 2Cor. 6:2)
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To: metmom
"And Catholicism states officially that those who are not Catholic are going to hell."

This has been addressed repeatedly. Please refer to previous posts.

264 posted on 05/23/2015 10:04:18 AM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: verga

Hail Mary’s up, verga...


265 posted on 05/23/2015 10:06:24 AM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: smvoice

I courtesy pinged you because you were a fellow addressee on the post.


266 posted on 05/23/2015 10:08:21 AM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: Salvation

Courtesy ping.


267 posted on 05/23/2015 10:10:58 AM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: Grateful2God
Ok, be good. 😃🇵🇭
268 posted on 05/23/2015 10:11:03 AM PDT by Mark17 (The love of God, how rich and pure, how measureless and strong. It shall forever more endure.)
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To: vladimir998
Those who apparently know they will not be able to deal with the information in the article will make excuses to not look at it – even for days at a time.<>This really has been a fun game with you; but the time has come for you post your data.

You KNOW that I am not going to due the work for you.

269 posted on 05/23/2015 1:40:26 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Grateful2God

Hail as big as canned hams.


270 posted on 05/23/2015 1:41:36 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

“This really has been a fun game with you;”

Oh, it sure has been.

“but the time has come for you post your data.”

It’s at the link I have posted about a half dozen times. Enjoy.

“You KNOW that I am not going to due the work for you.”

You didn’t. I found the article. I posted the link. I told you where in the article the info is. All you have to do is read it. But, as I said, “Those who apparently know they will not be able to deal with the information in the article will make excuses to not look at it – even for days at a time.”

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/web_aug.htm


271 posted on 05/23/2015 1:55:32 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: metmom
I'll try.

OK: First, the passage quoted in your previous post, that was from our Catechism, is directed to members of the Catholic Church, what It teaches, and our rights within the Church, and responsibilities to the Church as a family; to the world, that is stewardship and to our state in life. It's an admonishment to Catholics not to neglect our Faith; to live it; not to be lukewarm, but actively seeking God and serving Him and others in our daily lives, and not to neglect the responsibility to make certain that those in our care, that is, children, Godchildren, and sometimes friends and family whom God puts in our lives.

There are 1.2 billion of us in the world. It is meant to be a guideline, that pervades every aspect of our lives, We have all seen that not everyone follows the Church this way. There are some who have been amazing examples of what can happen when a person takes the leap of faith to follow this path.

Each of us Catholics enters a covenant with God at our Baptism, to know love and serve him through the Church, throughout our lives. For those of us Baptized as infants, our Godparents speak for us, and it is up to the baby's parents, Godparents, and fellow Catholics to teach them accordingly. When we reach the age of reason, and are capable of exercising our free will to be "good or bad" and are taught how to examine our conscience and make a good Confession, so that we can receive Our Lord Jesus in Holy Communion. As we mature in our lives and our Faith, we actively make a choice to keep that covenant begun at Baptism for the rest of our lives, at which point, we make our Confirmation. We receive the Holy Spirit in a special way. We also, having been given a name at Baptism when others spoke on our behalf, choose for ourselves a name of our own. From then on, we shoulder the responsibility to live for God through the tenets of that Faith. If we fail, we go to Confession, known as the Sacrament of Reconciliation. If we actively choose to break that covenant we made with God through the Church, and choose to walk away, or choose to commit sins of which they do not repent, they must accept the consequences. Man often fails in this respect- we have"cafeteria Catholics" and those who do not take the clerical responsibility to instruct/correct/assist them in reconciliation/or take their rights and privileges as Catholics away (excommunication). This is unfortunate, but a fact, nonetheless.

Can a person come back? Yes, of they truly desire to renew and to keep that Covenant. I rejected the Church, was away and returned.

Why? Because God is the One Who sees the things of the heart. He alone can perfectly know our minds, hearts, and consciences. It is He alone Who decides where we ultimately will be.

Bye for now. I hope this helped explain the difference between what you cited from the ÇCC and what is written in Lumen Gentium, which I cited in return.

God bless you!

272 posted on 05/23/2015 2:15:34 PM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: Grateful2God
Each of us Catholics enters a covenant with God at our Baptism, to know love and serve him through the Church, throughout our lives.

An infant is not capable of entering a covenant like that with full consent.

For those of us Baptized as infants, our Godparents speak for us, and it is up to the baby's parents, Godparents, and fellow Catholics to teach them accordingly. Nobody can make that decision for you.

The whole baptism stuff is unnecessary and ineffective. While adults can commit to helping raise a child in the faith and being a good example, NO ONE can make a decision FOR another person. We all stand before God on our own.

Nor is eating Jesus *receiving* Him. He doesn't dwell in anyone's heart through faith when He enters through the stomach.

God made salvation simple. HE didn't establish all those hoops to jump through to merit grace.

273 posted on 05/23/2015 2:34:55 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom; Grateful2God

The views expressed by most ex-Catholics are merely conjecture, opinion, or outright wrong, they have no basis in truth or reality.


274 posted on 05/23/2015 4:06:56 PM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: verga
Salvation by grace by believing

Easy enough for a child to do.

John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3-8 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Acts 16:27-31 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

2 Corinthians 6:2 For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Romans 3:20-30 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Ephesians 2:1-10And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

275 posted on 05/23/2015 6:21:59 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom
**An infant is not capable of entering a covenant like that with full consent.**

Nor is an infant capable of eating on its own, nor taking care of itself, nor protecting itself. That's what their parents do. If taking care of the body is important, how much more important to care for the soul?


**G2G: For those of us Baptized as infants, our Godparents speak for us, and it is up to the baby's parents, Godparents, and fellow Catholics to teach them accordingly.

MM:Nobody can make that decision for you.**

Once again:
As we mature in our lives and our Faith, we actively make a choice to keep that covenant begun at Baptism for the rest of our lives, at which point, we make our Confirmation. We receive the Holy Spirit in a special way. We also, having been given a name at Baptism when others spoke on our behalf, choose for ourselves a name of our own. From then on, we shoulder the responsibility to live for God through the tenets of that Faith.

276 posted on 05/23/2015 7:06:21 PM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: metmom
So simple maybe even a prot can understand it... some day.

1 peter 3:21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

277 posted on 05/23/2015 7:13:45 PM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: verga
**The views expressed by most ex-Catholics are merely conjecture, opinion, or outright wrong, they have no basis in truth or reality.**

That's been my experience, even with some who still call themselves Catholic, but aren't practicing. They miss out on what the Church has to offer. All they see are rules. I've heard a lot of reasons over the years, but most Catholics I know who left did so because of remarriage. That's a tough one. Our Pro-life stance is another. Look at how clueless our politicians are who call themselves Catholic.

My Mom read the Bible to me at night; my Dad used to bring me to Mass with him and the rules for respectful behavior were multiplied when we were in church. We prayed together at home. We didn't forget that God gave us a miracle. (My Mom survived terminal cancer when I was a baby). My parents were strict; I was brought up with a lot of structure and guidance, and discipline when necessary. I was also blessed with being taught well at school, and by the people around me. I remember being a teenager and going to church on Sundays with my friends. We stayed until the last note of the last hymn, because we knew too many adults who would give us "the look" 😒 on the way out. They cared about us, and wanted us to do things right. That translated, as we matured, into a sense that this was something important, something of value that we began to appreciate for ourselves as we got older. Now I'm one of the last to leave after Mass. I know God is with me always, but it's my time of peace and quiet with Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament before I go back out into the noise and craziness of the world. It's the Mass, the Eucharist, the prayer time that carry me through. The structure of the Church is a guide for me to find sense in a chaotic world. I never want to leave again.

278 posted on 05/23/2015 8:40:37 PM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: Grateful2God

Thank you for your honest testimony.


279 posted on 05/24/2015 3:35:23 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: vladimir998

Poor Vlad...

Slowly being driven mad by ELSIE’s abject refusal to do what he wants; tries yet again; thus re-enforcing what Einstein had observed:

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results equals...


280 posted on 05/24/2015 5:00:19 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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