Posted on 02/05/2015 4:43:45 PM PST by Idaho_Cowboy
I had lunch with a young man yesterday. He is a math and science teacher, and a very intense and focused Christian. He came to lunch with an agenda. First, he wanted to confess to being very angry with me when he first started reading my books and hearing me preach. This young man said, laughing, that I would be shocked by some of the things he wrote in the margins of my books. Second, now that he was no longer angry, he wanted to ask some clarifying biblical and theological questions.
I’m often asked, “Okay, I get this grace thing, but where do you draw the line?”
My standard answer is that you don’t; and when you do, it’s no longer grace. Grace covers white lies, murder and porn. It’s an umbrella that invites gays, lesbians, adulterers, liars and thieves. It’s for the pretenders of goodness and obedience. It covers the arrogant, the fat, the angry and the failures. It’s for everybody who is unqualified.
And then I will often ask, “Why do you want to draw a line?”
The drawing of the line is more often than not an effort to attain power, manipulate, affirm one’s own righteousness and keep out the spiritual cretins from the “family.” Drawing a line is the stuff of which religious institutions are made. I find myself getting quite irritated when people do that. (I know that’s self-righteousness too…and I repent. Grace covers the self-righteous…even those who, like me, are self-righteous about the self-righteous.)…
…There is (and you know it’s true) a mushy kind of grace sort of like what Reno attributes to political liberalism. It’s a “let’s join hands and sing Kumbaya around the campfire. You’re okay and I’m okay…so just keep singing because the singing is the important thing.”…
(Excerpt) Read more at keylife.org ...
They are — you just don’t recognize them.
“They are — you just don’t recognize them.”
Ah, so they are hidden, instead of taught!
Nah.
THE SACRAMENTS
HOLY MATRIMONY
Here we go again....
Jesus broke bread and poured wine at the Last Supper, He didn’t cut His finger off and slash his wrist.
“This do in remembrance of me”...
We (believers)were bound and identified with Him through his physical and spiritual death, and were raised along with Him in his resurrection, perfected in that instant once and for all. We need not re-sacrifice Him weekly, according to my heretical branch
I see the truth in his insights and he puts a better focus on a couple of things I've been struggling to understand. Good stuff!
Funny you base all your Grace on the sacraments, but yet the concept (Catholic) of sacrament wasn’t developed for at least 1200 years after Christ.
Councils of Lyons (1274) and Florence (1438-1445) and fianally COT solidified your sacraments and that’s tradition from the Apostles yeah sure it is, lol.
No they are actually made up for the translation to Latin nice try, but no prize.
As usual, Salvation, your links do not prove anything is taught as a sacrament as claimed.
There are no sacraments.
Christians are commanded to baptize and to celebrate the Lord’s Supper in memory of Him.
Boy are you in for a surprise. The key to salvation is accepting the finished work of Christ to completely atone for your sins. We are saved by Grace. His Grace and not any work of our own. Protestants have Gods grace and mercy just as much as any roman catholic. We are all saved in the same way by the same Lord. But you can believe you are special if you want.
Did you note the scripture attached to each?
The Catholic Church has celebrated the Sacraments ever since the days of Christ and the apostles.
You can believe what you wish, but don’t you know deep down from the scriptures cited that Sacraments did and do exist even today?
I don’t understand why you are saying this to me.
And if you read the history of the Early Church as written by the saints, you will see that there were Sacraments celebrated. In fact, Justin Martyr’s description of the Mass is so close to today’s Mass it is amazing.
Read the book “Four Witnesses.”
I never said the Sacraments wasn’t celebrated. I don’t need to read any books nor do you except the Holy Bible. You might want to read the documents of the COT and you will see that the 7 sacraments that your denomination cites today are not those of yesterday. Nor did they confer the Grace yesterday that you say they do today.
We are saved by grace.
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
If you believe in some one, do you believe what they say?
If they tell you to do something do you believe it or do you think they do not know what they are talking about?
Jesus told us what he expected of us in Mathew 25, 31 to 46.
How could the thief on the cross be saved without the sacraments?
If the sacraments play a role in our be saved from sin, it is strange indeed that John writing to his church did not rest on thing beyond belief as assurance of salvation.
I John 5:10-13 "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
It would be a travesty if God's Holy Spirit forgot to mention what beyond belief is required when recording the events of Acts 16. When the jailer in Phillip asked what he must do to be saved the Apostles forgot to tell him about the sacraments.
Acts 16:30-34 "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house."
There are many things a Christian should do; but we do good because we are saved, not to be saved. Titus 3:1-8 "Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."
Jesus broke bread and poured wine at the Last Supper, He didn’t cut His finger off and slash his wrist.
“This do in remembrance of me”...
We (believers)were bound and identified with Him through his physical and spiritual death, and were raised along with Him in his resurrection, perfected in that instant once and for all. We need not re-sacrifice Him weekly, according to my heretical branch
-------------------------------------
Very true. Jesus was the one time offering for our sins. As God's states in his word in the book of Hebrews it is Christ's sacrifice that paid for our sin. The blood of the Jewish sacrifices done to point toward his coming could not save. Once He has come there is no need for his blood to be shed afresh for us the debt as been paid.
Hebrews 10:1-14 "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
When Jesus cried from the old rugged cross it is finished he meant it and my in sin debt was paid and old account was settled, Halleluah!
No not really... You have to make a conscious decision...get up, get dressed, get in your car, drive to the church and walk the isle to get that grace.. it is a work
God grants graces.
Prayers for you to recognize that.
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