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Error Begets Error
catholic.com ^ | March 3, 2013 | Tim Staples

Posted on 02/02/2015 8:15:08 AM PST by Morgana

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To: Gamecock

Hehehe, I was just joshing. I noticed you have 10 years here on me but I’m over 22,000 already. I must have no life or something. Yet still the larder is full of home canned goods like vegetables, meat, pickles and all that all grown myself and canned myself. The freezer is full of home grown meat and I am just about finished building my shop myself. So I do have some form of life outside of here.


61 posted on 02/02/2015 12:22:50 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: PieterCasparzen

Works meant the same thing to the Jew 2,000 years ago?
I thought works - law according to the Jew


62 posted on 02/02/2015 12:23:01 PM PST by winodog (hang on tight to Gods salvation)
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To: vladimir998

***Grace builds on nature.***

Grace regenerates.


63 posted on 02/02/2015 12:26:34 PM PST by Gamecock (CELEBRATING 25,000 POSTS!)
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To: Gamecock

“Grace regenerates.”

Yes, and it builds. We were created in His image. We were not created to be evil. A Calvinist, however, will focus on depravity.


64 posted on 02/02/2015 12:29:39 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

I adhere to the Bible, not to Spurgeon or any other theologian. On each point, if they agree with the Bible, I agree with them. If not, I don’t.

Now we’re just playing word games with the word will.

A man is “made willing” ?

That implies he was not willing in the first place, otherwise why would he need to be “made” willing ?

So, in truth, it was against the man’s will. Then the Holy Ghost changed his will.

I guess then we get into defining the word will.

Word games.

And this is unscriptural:

“A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man”

because every man is a sinner, and, left up to him, he would reject God.

If that were not the case, some sinners could boast that they are saved because they were righteous enough to “do the right thing” and “let God” save them.

Ephesians 2

“8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”


65 posted on 02/02/2015 12:35:30 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.)
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To: PieterCasparzen

“I adhere to the Bible,”

I see no evidence of that.

” not to Spurgeon or any other theologian. On each point, if they agree with the Bible, I agree with them. If not, I don’t.”

So you’re saying Spurgeon was anti-biblical? He believed in sola scriptura. You probably do too. Yet you can’t agree?


66 posted on 02/02/2015 12:37:06 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
We were created in His image.

And were totally corrupted on that horrible day. We died that day.

A Calvinist, however, will focus on depravity.

Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

67 posted on 02/02/2015 12:45:35 PM PST by Gamecock (CELEBRATING 25,000 POSTS!)
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To: Gamecock

“And were totally corrupted on that horrible day.”

If we were corrupted to the point of total depravity, then we could not be saved. Hence, the fallen angels - who truly were “totally corrupted” can never be saved.

“We died that day.”

Yes.

http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/depravity-yes-total-depravity-no

http://learntheology.com/why-i-am-no-longer-a-calvinist-part-4-total-depravity-some-cursory-thoughts.html


68 posted on 02/02/2015 12:51:55 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

**then we could not be saved.**

Ahhhh! With God all things are possible! (It’s in the Bible!)

Also:
Ezekiel 37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones. 2 And he led me around among them, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley, and behold, they were very dry. 3 And he said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord God, you know.” 4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

Here we see bones, like we once were, being born again!


69 posted on 02/02/2015 1:08:59 PM PST by Gamecock (CELEBRATING 25,000 POSTS!)
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To: winodog
Works meant the same thing to the Jew 2,000 years ago?
I thought works - law according to the Jew


Basically yes. Let's face it, when we talk about works we're talking about things we do that we suppose are pleasing to God, and the question is, pertaining to salvation, do our "good works" merit our salvation.

Regarding things that we do that we see as "good works", i.e., giving to the poor, donating to globalist charities, etc., the Bible is clear - that these things do not merit our salvation. One simply can not "donate" one's way into heaven, or "buy" one's way in, and one also can not win one's way in by doing "good deeds" apart from faith in Christ, as the Apostle Paul writes, "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin".

Various places in the OT the message is quite clear that the "works" of sacrifices under the OT law - if a man is not in a state of being reconciled to God - are NOT pleasing to God. In such situations, those sacrifices, or those good works, are written to be not acceptable to God; in fact, the Bible says God finds them very odious.

Isaiah 1

"10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow."

Here's an explanation I found over at http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/eastons-bible-dictionary/works-good.html:

"The old objection against the doctrine of salvation by grace, that it does away with the necessity of good works, and lowers the sense of their importance ( Romans 6 ), although it has been answered a thousand times, is still alleged by many. They say if men are not saved by works, then works are not necessary. If the most moral of men are saved in the same way as the very chief of sinners, then good works are of no moment. And more than this, if the grace of God is most clearly displayed in the salvation of the vilest of men, then the worse men are the better.

The objection has no validity. The gospel of salvation by grace shows that good works are necessary. It is true, unchangeably true, that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. "Neither adulterers, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards" shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Works are "good" only when, (1) they spring from the principle of love to God. The moral character of an act is determined by the moral principle that prompts it. Faith and love in the heart are the essential elements of all true obedience. Hence good works only spring from a believing heart, can only be wrought by one reconciled to God ( Ephesians 2:10 ; James 2:18:22). ). Good works have the glory of God as their object; and (3) they have the revealed will of God as their only rule ( Deuteronomy 12:32 ; Revelation 22:18 Revelation 22:19 ).

Good works are an expression of gratitude in the believer's heart ( John 14:15 John 14:23 ; Galatians 5:6 ). They are the fruits of the Spirit ( Titus 2:10-12 ), and thus spring from grace, which they illustrate and strengthen in the heart.

Good works of the most sincere believers are all imperfect, yet like their persons they are accepted through the mediation of Jesus Christ ( Colossians 3:17 ), and so are rewarded; they have no merit intrinsically, but are rewarded wholly of grace. "
70 posted on 02/02/2015 1:09:54 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.)
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To: Salvation

Clive was very wrong about any number of spiritual things. I sure wouldn’t look to him for wisdom.


71 posted on 02/02/2015 1:14:35 PM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: Campion

No one said it is Protestant-only, but it’s hard not to recognize that there seems to be an organized campaign to flood FR with new threads on Rome all day every day of the year.


72 posted on 02/02/2015 1:18:18 PM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: Gamecock

Congrats!


73 posted on 02/02/2015 1:19:05 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: vladimir998
” not to Spurgeon or any other theologian. On each point, if they agree with the Bible, I agree with them. If not, I don’t.”

So you’re saying Spurgeon was anti-biblical? He believed in sola scriptura. You probably do too. Yet you can’t agree?


Vlad, your twisting is obvious to all readers. I say I evaluate my agreement on a point-by-point basis, and your immediate response is to accuse me of saying "Spurgeon was anti-biblical", i.e., you seek to get me to agree with everything Spurgeon every wrote or none of it at all ?

This argument is a good thing, it will get more Roman Catholics to start thinking about the falsehoods of Papal doctrine.
74 posted on 02/02/2015 1:19:50 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.)
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To: Gamecock

“Ahhhh! With God all things are possible! (It’s in the Bible!)”

Not a single one of the fallen angels will be saved from an eternity in hell.


75 posted on 02/02/2015 1:30:05 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: Morgana
Paul’s point in saying justification is a free gift was not to eliminate works as necessary for salvation in all categories. Men must, for example, choose to open the free gift (see II Cor. 6:1). St. Paul was answering “Judaizers”—believers in Christ who were attempting to re-establish the law of the Old Covenant

And here we have the fatal admission: Paul's diatribes are aimed at Biblical ritual, ceremonial, holidays, laws, and commandments. These had to be gotten out of the way so a new post-Biblical religion (with its own ritual, ceremonial, holidays, laws, and commandments) could take its place. Protestants and their demand for honesty and internal consistency have never gotten this point.

The goal never was to provide "free salvation" or any such thing but only to start a new religion.

The author is to be thanked for his honesty in admitting this.

76 posted on 02/02/2015 1:30:27 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Throne and Altar! [In Jerusalem!!!])
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To: vladimir998

I sure didn’t come up with the term papist and had no idea some of you who believe in popes were so sensitive. I believe in full immersion believer’s baptism, ergo I’m known as a Baptist. My understanding of baptism is a very narrow part of what I believe, but the term Baptist doesn’t bother me, so I don’t know why Romanists would be sensitive about papist.


77 posted on 02/02/2015 1:30:47 PM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: PieterCasparzen

“Vlad, your twisting is obvious to all readers.”

You’re the one twisting things.

You say one thing. Spurgeon says another.

Who is correct: you or Spurgeon? Yet you both used sola scriptura.


78 posted on 02/02/2015 1:31:28 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Jesus died for us.

Not for fallen angels.


79 posted on 02/02/2015 1:44:25 PM PST by Gamecock (CELEBRATING 25,000 POSTS!)
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To: Gamecock

“Jesus died for us. Not for fallen angels.”

Yes. They really were totally depraved.


80 posted on 02/02/2015 1:50:06 PM PST by vladimir998
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