Posted on 01/08/2015 5:33:17 AM PST by Gamecock
A doorstep encounter with missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) may allow only a brief moment to make a hopefully lasting impression, so we must weigh our words carefully. Too many Christians make the mistake of introducing peripheral topics that can sometimes move the discussion toward an agonizing dead end.
Many times Mormons are not familiar with their history or doctrines, allowing them sometimes to assume the Christian is either making something up or taking something out of context. But ask a Mormon, “If you were to die right now, do you have the assurance that all of your sins are forgiven?” The typical response is, inevitably, “I hope so,” “I think so,” or just plain, “No.” Why is this?
In Mormonism, salvation is defined in two unique ways. Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith explained, “Salvation is twofold: General—that which comes to all men irrespective of a belief (in this life) in Christ—and, Individual—that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.”1 General salvation, or resurrection from the dead, is known as salvation by grace and is provided to all people. It is synonymous with immortality since the resurrected person lives forever.
The goal of a faithful Latter-day Saint is to achieve individual salvation or “exaltation,” which does not come easily. Thomas S. Monson, Mormonism’s current prophet, taught, “It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings must be earned.”2 With this as a background, we can then proceed to remind them regarding what those requirements really entail.
The Impossible Gospel. Using just six verses from two of the Standard Works3 and by asking a few questions, it’s possible to show how futile Mormonism’s plan of salvation really is. Bear in mind that these questions are asked within a context that a Mormon will understand.
1 Nephi 3:7: “For I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.”
Ask: Does this passage say that it’s possible to keep all of God’s commandments? How are you doing at this?
Alma 11:37: “And I say unto you again that he [God] cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.”
Ask: Do you struggle with sin? If so, doesn’t this tend to prove that you, as a Mormon, are still “in your sins” and are “unclean”? If you are, doesn’t this mean you are not saved?
Moroni 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you.”
Ask: Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness? If not, doesn’t this verse tend to prove that you have yet to receive the grace that will cleanse you of your sins? If you have not denied yourself of all ungodliness, when do you think you will do so?
D and C 25:15: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.”
Ask: How many commandments must you keep continually? Some? Most? All?4 If all, how are you doing at this?
D and C 58:43: “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.”
Ask: How many sins must you forsake?5 Have you forsaken all of your sins? If not, doesn’t that mean you have not truly repented?
D and C 1:31: “For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.”
Ask: In light of the answers you’ve given to the above questions, do you think God will overlook your sins?
Common Excuses. We like to utilize a book written by twelfth LDS President Spencer W. Kimball (1895–1985) called The Miracle of Forgiveness. This popular work, which has been in continuous print since 1969, has even been recommended for use by two general authorities speaking at General Conferences.6
Kimball insisted that “one of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.”7 Stating that “forgiveness (is) cancelled on reversion to sin,” he wrote, “Those who feel that they can sin and be forgiven and then return to sin and be forgiven again and again must straighten out their thinking. Each previously forgiven sin is added to the new one and the whole gets to be a heavy load.”8 Kimball said that “God would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal.”9
With these quotes in mind, consider several common excuses used by many Latter-day Saints and the response to such objections from this Mormon president.
“This is why we have repentance.” Spencer Kimball utilized D and C 58:43 when he wrote, “There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of sin. Providing that a person discontinues his sin with the right motives—because of a growing consciousness of the gravity of the sin and a willingness to comply with the laws of the Lord—he is genuinely repenting….In other words, it is not real repentance until one has abandoned the error of his way and started on a new path.”10 He later added, “The Lord cannot save men in their sins but only from their sins, and that only when they have shown true repentance.”11 The problem, of course, is that most Mormons realize they have not met such a demanding requirement; hence, they have not “truly repented” in the first place.
“But I’m trying” and “I’m doing the best I can.” Many Mormons like to believe that their honest efforts to do the right thing are enough to achieve forgiveness. Kimball did not think so. He wrote, “Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin. To try with a weakness of attitude and effort is to assure failure in the sense of Satan’s strong counteracting efforts. What is needed is resolute action.”12 He then related a story about a military officer who ordered a soldier to deliver a message. This officer became irritated when the soldier said he would try to carry out the order, even if it meant death. To this the officer replied, “I don’t want you to die, and I don’t want you merely to do the best you can, and I don’t want you to try. Now, the request is a reasonable one….Now get out of here and accomplish your mission.”13 Kimball concluded, “To ‘try’ is weak. To ‘do the best I can’ is not strong. We must always do better than we can.”14 Remind the Mormon that whenever a person uses the word “try,” it is almost always within the context of failure. For example, a person who climbs a hill will say he climbed the hill. He doesn’t say he “tried” to climb the hill.
The Freedom Found in Christ. The Bible contradicts the notion that we can earn God’s forgiveness. Grace by definition is unmerited and mercy by definition is undeserved. For example, Romans 3:28 says a person “is justified by faith without the deeds of the law,” while Galatians 2:16 adds that “by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
It is important to stress that we are not minimizing the role of good works. While justification comes by grace through faith and not by works, Ephesians 2:10 clearly states that believers were created for good works. Our works are the evidence of our faith. When we realize that salvation comes through what Christ did on the cross, it no longer is about what we do but rather what He did. Unfortunately, Mormonism places an oppressive burden squarely on the backs of the LDS people.
Forgiveness of sins provides the Christian peace that passes all understanding. By using the approach we’ve presented here, you will be challenging the Mormon to explain why Christians should surrender their assurance of forgiveness for something that the Mormons only wish they had. —Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson
Bill McKeever is the founder of Mormonism Research Ministry (www.mrm.org), which he founded in 1979.
Eric Johnson is an MRM research associate. Together they coauthored Mormonism 101 (Baker, 2000).
NOTES 1.Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:134 (Salt Lake City: Publishers Press, 1956). Emphasis in original.
2.“An Invitation to Exaltation,” Ensign, May 1988, 56.
3.The King James Version of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants comprise written scripture to Mormons.
4.According to the 1997 church manual Teachings of Presidents of The Church: Brigham Young, “Joseph also told us that the Savior requires strict obedience to all the commandments, ordinances and laws pertaining to his kingdom, and that if we would do this we should be made partakers of all the blessings promised in his Gospel,” 37–38.
5.Former president Harold B. Lee wrote, “In one sentence, repentance means turning from that which we have done wrong in the sight of the Lord and never repeating that mistake again. Then we can have the miracle of forgiveness.” Harold B. Lee, Ye Are the Light of the World: Selected Sermons and Writings of Harold B. Lee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1974), 321.
6.General Conferences are official gatherings held in Salt Lake City in the spring and fall each year. See Seventy Richard L. Evans, Conference Report, April 1970, 16; Apostle Richard G. Scott, Ensign, November 2004, 16.
7.Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1969), 206–7.
8.Ibid., 169, 170.
9.Ibid., 209.
10.Ibid., 163.
11.Ibid., 166, emphasis in original.
12.Ibid., 164, emphasis in original.
13.Ibid.
14.Ibid., 165.
To humble us, and help us remember just who it is that forgives us.
“But ask a Mormon, “If you were to die right now, do you have the assurance that all of your sins are forgiven?” The typical response is, inevitably, “I hope so,” “I think so,” or just plain, “No.”
One could easily substitute “Mormon” with several labels and get the same responses. Unbelief in the finished work of Christ results in NO SECURITY, just where Satan and all his dead religions want us!
But if one believes in “Once saved, always saved”, why would one need further forgiveness? Why not revel in temptation?
I consider all religion sinful and agents of discord.
Smoking is the ultimate sin in most churches regardless of what they teach and it is also what the world teaches but is not taught in the Bible.
You’re obviously not frequenting the proper establishments for finding them.
Faith in Jesus saves.
All else flows from that.
Justification, them comes sanctification.
If faith in Jesus is all that is necessary for salvation, then why would one with faith in Jesus need to pray for forgiveness from sin?
To show the deception.
In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.
1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.
I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.
Ezra Taft Benson
(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University) http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng
Earlier in post #3 you wrote:
I spent eight+ years as a non-Mormon in Salt Lake City when I was much younger. I have no affection whatsoever for the Mormon church.
You may not be a Mormon, but your challenges certainly parallel Mormon thinking on the subject. What are you positing as being "necessary for salvation"?
, teppe,normandy...
Were you guys ever missionaries??
Even YOURS???
A question we ALL want answered!!!
Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the 11th of November, in the year of the reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth, 1620.
Will reveling in temptation bring you happiness?
Honest question.
Matthew 20:1-16 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
1 The kingdom of heaven is like to an householder, who went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And having agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And going out about the third hour, he saw others standing in the market place idle.
4 And he said to them: Go you also into my vineyard, and I will give you what shall be just.
5 And they went their way. And again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did in like manner.
6 But about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing, and he saith to them: Why stand you here all the day idle?
7 They say to him: Because no man hath hired us. He saith to them: Go you also into my vineyard.
8 And when evening was come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward: Call the labourers and pay them their hire, beginning from the last even to the first.
9 When therefore they were come, that came about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first also came, they thought that they should receive more: and they also received every man a penny.
11 And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house,
12 Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats.
13 But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny?
14 Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee.
15 Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good?
16 So shall the last be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
The bothersome reply
"I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't think others know a lot about it."
The reporter wrote, "On whether his church still holds that God the Father was once a man, he sounded uncertain." That's an unfortunate conclusion. Of course I wasn't at the interview and neither were you but I'll bet the reporter mistook careful thoughtfulness for uncertainty. This doctrine is indeed deep territory and not something that is taught outside the LDS Church.
An earlier and similar interview
The San Francisco Chronicle, published an interview with President Hinckley in April of 1997. The reporter asked, "There are some significant differences in your beliefs. For instance, don't Mormon's believe that God was once a man?" President Hinckley responded, "I wouldn't say that. There is a little couplet coined, 'As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.'"
He then said, "Now that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about." The reporter pounced on this. "So you're saying that the church is still struggling to understand this? " President Hinckley responded, "Well, as God is, man may become. We believe in eternal progression. Very strongly."
President Hinckley's response
President Hinckley said in October 1997 General Conference: "I personally have been much quoted, and in a few instances misquoted and misunderstood. I think that's to be expected. None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine.
"I think I understand them thoroughly, and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the Church." And there lies the whole point of my post today. Some members did indeed become a little concerned by the exchanges they read in the press reports of those interviews.
Does the Church still teach this?
I know this is old news but it still bothers some people when they discover the anti-Mormon attacks floating around on the Internet. President Hinckley was right. We really don't know much about how our Heavenly Father became a God. The idea that he passed through a mortal probationary state like you and me is certainly not documented in any scripture of which I know.
However, it is still taught. In the Gospel Principles manual in the chapter on exaltation we read, "Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46)."
Summary and conclusion
I don't know why this should bother anyone. The doctrine is true. Joseph Smith knew a whole lot more about this than I do. President Hinckley also knew a whole lot more about this doctrine than he was willing to share with reporters who did not have the background to understand it. It must have been difficult for President Hinckley to hold back and not teach it in those interviews.
It didn't bother me when I read the interviews back in 1997 and it doesn't bother me today. However, I know it does bother some people. We each have trials of our faith. I have never depended on an intellectual understanding of the gospel in order to accept it and live it. There are some things that just can't be fully comprehended without the temple, prayer and faith.
There are some things that just can't be fully comprehended without the temple, prayer and faith.
Good Question!!
To remind us...
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