Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[ealgeone]

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.

[Syncro]

Do you go a doctor that has no degree?

Yes. Decades ago I went to Jesus, the Great Physician (no AA, no BS, no Masters (He is the Master), no Phd) and he healed me.

Would you use a lawyer that did not have a degree and had passed the bar?

If he did not have a degree and passed the bar anyway, yes I would. He'd probably be smarter than the other lawyers because he was self taught.

When people make really stupid comment I have to know where they got that information from.

LOL, the Christmas season is over huh?

...the erroneous claim that Catholic worship Mary: Who taught you that?

The multitudes of Catholics seen worshiping Mary, and even saying they do. Including some in the popedum.

I want to know if some Catholic told them a lie or if they are repeating what they heard from others with an axe top grind.

Bears repeating for the record. Catholics lie? Who'd thunk it?

[verga]

So is this your way of saying you still don’t know where babies come from?

[verga]

Blah Blah Blah, non answer noted.

[verga]

I have dealt with more than enough ignorance today. If I feel up to it I will deal with more prot drivel tomorrow.

[caww]

Christians have no reason to waste their time asking catholicism's mary anything, she cannot hear you...but the demons love to impersonate her and the saints to keep people engaged with them.

....the mary catholicism worships is not the mary of the Bible rather a created entity/idol of their own imaginations and making.

Additionally as Christians we have direct communication with Jesus Christ...We have the unfailing promise of Jesus that He will hear our prayers.

Jesus said...."So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened‚‚."(Luke 11: 9-10)

There is only ONE Mediator between mankind and God and that is Jesus Christ. (ITim:2)

Jesus is the only one worthy to present us before God's throne of grace....It is because of our great Mediator Jesus Christ that we are able to stand before God clothed in the righteousness of Christ Himself...Jesus is always interceding for us....no one but He is able to intercede for us...not saints..not mary,...Only Jesus Christ alone.

[redleghunter]

Some people are educated way past their intelligence. Seek the Wisdom of God, not the knowledge of men.

Yes, indeed this Christianity was so difficult that simple fishermen were able to preach the Gospel.

Acts 4:

5 And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes, 6 as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, “By what power or by what name have you done this?”

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. 14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

[CynicalBear]

>>Someone guided by the Holy spirit should have no trouble with the translation, unless......<<

Matthew 16:19 ἔσται - eimi - I am, exist

Interesting that you highlighted the wrong word in your list. We are not looking at λελυμένον which is translated loosed. We are looking at when it was loosed. Not in any Greek lexicon can the Greek word ἔσται - eimi be made to mean "will be".

I know the Catholic way is to divert the attention but let's keep on subject.

[CynicalBear]

>>That means you are either in schism, a heretic, or a protestor.<<

GASP!!

[rwa265]

I was nodding off last night and as a result posted a poorly worded statement, which I would have deleted if that were an option.

What I meant to say was the Catechism more accurately reflects official Catholic doctrine than do some of the documents that you have been citing.

Your point that “It’s gotta be tough to be a Catholic....there is sooooo much material you have to keep up with” is well taken.

That is why the Catechism of the Catholic Church was composed; to put together a compendium of all catholic doctrine for the first time in over 400 years. A document that is “a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic doctrine.” My point is that some documents, including documents from Popes and Saints, contain statements that are not in accord with Catholic doctrine.

[CynicalBear]

>>Jesus be praised! Thanks for showing me, again, why I stay away from churches and organized religion.<<

As do I!!

>>All I hear is "Let's get ready to rumble..." then you're ringing the bell to start the round.<<

Perhaps you should listen more closely. It's only when people post error contrary to scripture that I counter with the truth from scripture as we are told to do.

[GBA]

As far as you know...

[CynicalBear]

>>Exactly new Covent new Rules.<<

New Covenant.

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Yet Catholics still claim to eat the blood. New Covenant doesn't seem to matter to Catholics.

[CynicalBear]

Acts 15:29 is only in “narrow minded bigots and the ignorant”? Really?

[Elsie]

Is it possible to exist and not think even at some rudimentary pre cognitive level?

I just LOVE softball!!

---

Is it possible to be a Catholic, and not think even at some rudimentary pre cognitive level?

Mary is faster than a computer.

There is no time in Heaven.

Jesus will always do what His mother asks of Him.

Eat this wafer or lose out on the good stuff.

[Elsie]

Our Lady of Kazan, drive the dark force of Islam back to the desert it came from and liberate Russia of Islam and communism.

Yeah; this is gonna happen!

[Springfield Reformer]

What is needed is a perfect Priest offering a perfect Sacrifice in a manner that can be perpetuated among the gentile nations from the rising to the setting of the sun.

Well, we have our perfect Priest in Jesus, but the offering of His sacrifice was, according to Hebrews, a one time event that accomplished the intended purpose.  His ongoing function as our High Priest is to act as our advocate.  But the propitiatory (sin-cleansing) offering is a concluded activity.  I'm sure you know the passage well, but I recite it for completeness and for the benefit of others:

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(Hebrews 1:1-3)

But what of the "perfect" sacrifice, you say?  Is this even mentioned in Malachi?  Not in the sense in which you are using "perfect."  Consider the words again:

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Malachi 1:11)

The Hebrew for "pure" here is "tahor," which means clean, in the sense of ceremonially acceptable.  As we note from Romans 12:1, the sacrifice of praise we as believers offer to God IS acceptable.  Therefore it is pure in the exact same sense as used in this passage, even though it is offered by us in our imperfections.  This is because God does not see our imperfections, judicially speaking.  Having been justified by faith, we come before Him with Jesus as our advocate, dressed in His righteousness.  Our praise and blessing as it reaches Him is as pure as if Jesus Himself had offered it. This also is why we have no need of lesser intermediaries.  Just Jesus.

Therefore, as nothing in the passage requires the sacrifice to be propitiary, and as it is well met by the non-propitiary but nevertheless acceptable sacrifices of Gentile believers all over the earth, there is simply no reason to read back into this passage a doctrine of Aristotelian substances that had no definite expression until the 9th Century monk Radbertus.

As to the "perpetual" nature of the OT sacrifice, the Hebrew word for "forever" in the passages you cite is "olam."  It does not carry the westernized sense of an absolute eternity of time.  It is more the sense of a period of time that will run, from a human perspective, into the unforeseeable future. See for example the entry in the Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon:

עוֹלָם n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity

Some Hebrew scholars also use the concept of "age" or "world," for certain context specific renderings. In any event, building on these "olam" passages to push past the boundary of the New Covenant simply doesn't work. These services of priestly sacrifice are specifically set aside by the coming of Messiah.  Hebrews is unambiguous on that point.  We are in the New Covenant, under the lawgiver of the New Covenant, and His law is to remember his death by the paschal meal till He comes back for us, which remembrance presumes a deed done and finished ("It is finished"), which deed can then be remembered with much love.

Peace,

SR

[ealgeone]

That is why the Catechism of the Catholic Church was composed; to put together a compendium of all catholic doctrine for the first time in over 400 years. A document that is “a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic doctrine.” My point is that some documents, including documents from Popes and Saints, contain statements that are not in accord with Catholic doctrine.

Whoa........how in the world can this be?

How would someone reading all of this stuff know what's "official" and what's not.

And then there's this....

In Fidei depositum, John Paul II declared that the Catechism of the Catholic Church was "a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion and a sure norm for teaching the faith",[3] and stressed that it "is not intended to replace the local catechisms duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan Bishops and the Episcopal Conferences".[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechism_of_the_Catholic_Church

If I'm understanding this....local authorities can produce their own catechisms???

I've been told on this board too many times that the catholic church's teaching is the same.....there is no variation....no independent thought....monolithic if you will. (almost borg like in a way)

Non catholics get a cereal box for "your own personal interpretation of Scripture" and are chided for this.

And now you're saying that some of the writings of the popes, councils, etc may not be "up to date???"

Sounds like the rcc speaks out of both sides of its mouth....getting to pick and choose which doctrine is current or which one is not.

That's exactly what we've been saying on this board. RCC teaching changes and has changed over time. Thanks for confirming what we've know.

Meanwhile...I'll stick with the Word....it doesn't change.

[Elsie]

Making statements like that do not make Catholics look very well educated.

Actually; it is THESE types of statements...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3241589/posts?page=135#66

[CynicalBear]

I find it rather curious that one so well educated feels compelled to revert to name calling.

[caww]

....”And no one comes to Jesus but that the Father draws them. Interesting how Mary is not included in what God says. Of course Mary was evidently treated as inconsequential after Pentecost as no one even cared to keep track of her last days”.....

As humble before God as Mary was I tend to think she didn't desire any fanfare nor would it come to mind, she had her moments prior and on stage at his birth...and nothing could top that ever!.... and Jesus had certainly put her in her place when she even tried even to draw attention to him prematurely...her work was done. ..she could not interfere in His path. Now it was all about Him and mankind and those who would be His disciples.

I find it amazing that just in three years time all that was accomplished by Jesus and this under one dilemma after another. Yet amid it all people were saved and believed, there was Joy there was sorrow...there were amazing moments of tenderness and confrontations with the religious leaders....and on and on. Just an amazing remarkable life! ...Truly I can scarcely take it in!...One that never becomes old!