Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[ealgeone]

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.

[ealgeone]

Regarding DeMontfort....I'm sorry.....it doesn't square away with the New Testament at all.

There is nothing, I mean nothing in the NT, that ascribes to Mary the abilities, perogatives, etc that he, or other catholic writers have written.

The Bible does have this to say about her.

Mary was the mother of Jesus. She was a humble bondslave of our Lord. She knew her OT as evidenced by her prayer recorded in Luke. She was a "good" girl in that she had not engaged in extra marital sex prior to her marriage with Joseph. She and Joseph followed the Law as they offered the sin sacrifice after Jesus was born. She and Joseph raised Jesus. She saw her Son rejected and crucified by the leadership of the day. She also knew her Son was resurrected on the third day. She was in the Upper Room and was able to see the birth of the church that would be built around her Son.

She is blessed among women and she will always be remembered in that capacity.

[Elsie]

So it is a legitimate question that I will keep asking when someone says something stupid.

Mary is dead

[verga]

I think not.

Cogito ergo sum("I think, therefore I am", or better "I am thinking, therefore I exist")- Rene Decartes (17th century French Philosopher)

Sum ergo cogito (I think, therefore I am) Jean Paul Sarte (20th Century French Philosopher)

Can a person that does not think be said to exist at all?

How would that person prove their existence?

Is it possible to exist and not think even at some rudimentary pre cognitive level?

[FourtySeven]

All right dear ealgeone, it’s clear St. DeMontfort’s writings do not agree with your opinion of what the NT says (and doesn’t say). What would it hurt, though, to take his advice (and mine) as previously described? He (and I) are literally onky saying to pray to God directly for discernment from the Holy Spirit. Nothing about Mary in Paragraph 2. Only God. Directly. Do as you wish however.

I would like to end by commending you. In this post you at least demonstrate more respect and, dare I say veneration of Mary than others on this thread. For that you are to be commended.

May you have a joyous Christmas season.

[annalex]

Our Lady of Kazan

This iconographical type shows Jesus, while small like a baby, with an adult face and posture. That is to indicate that He is begotten of the Father before all ages. It is also notable that in most Theotokos icons she is pointing at Him, but here He is pointing at her and blessing her as the mother He chose.

Our Lady of Kazan, drive the dark force of Islam back to the desert it came from and liberate Russia of Islam and communism. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, amen.

[annalex]

Why not just ask Jesus or the Father for this???

I could, but I don't want to pray alone.

[CynicalBear]

>>the Protestants decided to toss<<

Making statements like that do not make Catholics look very well educated. I would suggest you study how the Jews from the first and second centuries rejected those books. They were well before those you refer to as Protestants by the way.

[annalex]

No where does James make any reference to a "special" canonized saint

True, but the point remains that when I think "who do I know who is righteous?" I think of Mary, my patron saint Alexius of Rome, the Holy Apostles, St. Thomas, pope Gregory the Great, -- the saints. So I ask them first.

Madonna, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Paul

Mother Mary pray for us sinners and pray for the Holy Church. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, in the company of saints in heaven, Amen.

[verga]

I would suggest you study how the Jews from the first and second centuries rejected those books.

The Same Jews of the first and second century that rejected Christ and the entire New Testament.

Is that who protestants want to align themselves with?

I have asked this question countless times and not one of you has ever answered it.

[ealgeone]

>Why not just ask Jesus or the Father for this???<

I could, but I don't want to pray alone.

You're not....Romans 8:26-27

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

[annalex]

what is your plan of salvation? Make it simple.

At all times, be with Christ and His saints and imitate them as they imitated Him.

I am not "Ann"; that would be my wife, but she is not posting anything.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent

For this year Lenten Season you can download for free ‘The Ladder of Divine Ascent’ by St. John Climacus, translated by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore (Harper & Brothers, 1959). John Climacus (c. 579-649) was abbot of the monastery of Catherine on Mount Sinai. His Ladder was the most widely used handbook of the ascetical life in the ancient Greek Church.

www.carmelitepriory.org

The icon in this case is Russian, but the "plan of salvation" is the same for all authentic Christians, Catholic and Orthodox.

This is a difficult icon, but I will be happy to explain, -- just ask.

[redleghunter]

This begins by reminding Timothy of the value of tradition, things that "have been committed to thee", presumably by St. Paul.

True and the following are the traditions in which Paul is teaching Timothy to follow:

The first being what follows exactly after the above statement:

2 Timothy 3:

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Right there, Paul clearly points out what he teaches Timothy can be verified with Scriptures.

The second being what Christ taught:

Luke 24:

44 And he said unto them,These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

The above is the tradition passed from Jesus Christ. It was also the Gospel preached by all the apostles and disciples of Christ.

Confirmed yet here as well:

John 20:

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

How was this applied in the ministry of all the apostles? The apostle Paul makes it clear:

1 Corinthians 15:

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

So we see exactly what is meant by tradition or a term you are more familiar with, what is Apostolic Tradition. In the NT this is clear, it is the declaration of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and Gospel of Christ crucified, died, and Resurrected; Ascended into Heaven to be seated at the Right Hand of the Father; and He will Come Again. This is the tradition passed down, written down and became the Rule of Faith in the post apostolic era. We see this here:

. . . this faith: in one God, the Father Almighty, who made the heaven and the earth and the seas and all the things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was made flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who made known through the prophets the plan of salvation, and the coming, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and his future appearing from heaven in the glory of the Father to sum up all things and to raise anew all flesh of the whole human race . . . St. Irenaeus of Lyons ( The "Rule of Faith" as recorded by Irenaeus) http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Irenaeus.htm

Irenaeus expands this understanding in Against Heresies Book 3.2.1:

1. When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, “But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world.” 1 Corinthians 2:6 And this wisdom each one of them alleges to be the fiction of his own inventing, forsooth; so that, according to their idea, the truth properly resides at one time in Valentinus, at another in Marcion, at another in Cerinthus, then afterwards in Basilides, or has even been indifferently in any other opponent, who could speak nothing pertaining to salvation. For every one of these men, being altogether of a perverse disposition, depraving the system of truth, is not ashamed to preach himself. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103302.htm

[annalex]

The Lord’s Supper reflects the Body & Blood of Christ.

Aha. That is better. So you understand now that the sub-point, as you call it, is the Eucharist and not the assembly of Christians in the Church? Except it is not really a "sub-point", -- it goes on for the better part of the chapter. Also, the words St. Paul uses: "discern the body of the Lord" which apparently can "condemn" one -- does not match your "reflect". Christ did not say "this bread reflects my body" did He?

[CynicalBear]

>>Where is that "written"? Chapter, verse? Please.<<

One only needs to study the Greek words to understand that the translation "will be bound" is in error. The Greek word is eimi which means I am, exist. Here is the word used again.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus exists eternally as do the things the apostles were to bind. Nothing in that passage says that the what the apostles did would begin to be bound in heaven. They could only declare what already existed.

[annalex]

The passage simply said that they kept the relics because they would heal them. That is sufficient justification for the authentic Christians to do the same.

[annalex]

The Holy Spirit makes intercession for us, not Mary

Did you ask Mary? Do you really expect Mary to lead someone away from her Son? Holy Spirit dwells in her, does it not?

The "vain repetitions" part is nowhere in the Gospel either.

[annalex]

Dead one.

[CynicalBear]

>>However, "the continual prayer of a just man availeth much" (James 5:16)<<

Paul was talking about people living on earth. Please show where he ever suggested that those who had passed from this earth were included in those to be asked for prayers.

[annalex]

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them

So men are saved by grace alone. Faith is the process through which we receive grace. Grace is not of works; all glory in your salvation belongs to God. Good works are necessary because God prepared them for you. This is how you are saved.

[CynicalBear]

>>Right. Who do you think wrote the Holy Scripture<<

Certainly not anyone associated with the Catholic Church.