Posted on 12/14/2014 11:57:21 AM PST by ealgeone
The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.
They forget the time that Mary slapped Him.
It’s implied after this verse:
Joh 2:3-4 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. (4) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
I know if I called my mother “woman”, I would get my head rattled.
You guys have NO scripture for the sinlessness of M-ry; but complain that Scripture should NOT be taken a certain way.
Strange doublemindedness on display here.
Yes; let me emphasis that I DO disrespect Mary!
The "MARY" YOUR chosen religion has created and wastes so much time on.
Are you happy now?
Free free to take this phrase out of context in the future...
“they are wrong, that’s why they are PROTESTANTS..”
And your posts make claims like this with no proof, that’s why they are CATHOLIC.
It amazes me how the meaning of scripture has been twisted. The quote above comes from James 2:21. Let's look at the word for word translation from the Greek.
James 2:21 Abraham the father of us not my works was justified having offered Isaac the son of him upon the alter.
And then the next verse.
James 2:22 you see that his faith was working with the works of him and by his works his faith was completed.
The actions (works) that Abraham took by laying Isaac on that alter was simply the end result of the faith Abraham had. True faith always has the result of acting right or good works. However, it is not the works that justify. It is the true faith which is only exhibited by the works that justifies. Paul states that clearly in Romans 4.
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
And again in Romans 5.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
It's faith that justifies. The works are only a result of proof of that faith.
Doesn’t matter. He was there, wasn’t He? And He wasn’t supposed to be. Sounds like a miracle to me.
Also, why did she say, “Do Whatever He says!”
a. She wanted to embarrass Him.
b. She KNEW something was about to happen.
c. She liked to flap her gums.
d. That’s a Hebrew idiom that actually means: “Throw up your hands and panic!”
How many of John’s verses do you want me to post?
Wow! Could it be stated any clearer? Catholics have completely replaced Christ with the institution of the Catholic Church.
You should have kept reading before clicking on "Post Reply". It was the next sentence. Please allow me to repeat myself:
"I figure that anyone or anything that puts a few cracks in the walls we build around our hearts is of value."
I'm a rather simple fellow in this regard and there's really no need to make it complicated, imho.
We humans are like self-tuning receivers. We have freewill and can tune in to any "channel" we find interesting by using our thoughts, interests, focused attention through music, reading, philosophy, other people, etc.
The name of the game is to choose the best channel and, to me, the best channel is the God Channel and, as near as I can tell, our heart is the signal strength meter.
As such, anyone who can help you tune your inner receiver this way can be of value if you have the right focus and attitude (the right sort of spirit). If so, the God channel is easy to find and tune in.
It's all up to you, the receiver, to choose what to receive. You alone have this power over your freewill and what you tune in.
Seek and ye shall find, so choose wisely.
You’ve made it clear why the RCC places study of Scripture down the list of importance when it comes to their religion.
(Someone else besides the Word of God must explain things to them.)
I listen to Jesus, not to the Jewish laws, whatever the number.
Pardon the tardy response, I had to run off last night, but certainly use any part you wish...the truth should not be copyrighted.
Right: that is said of Abraham who had not been circumcised yet his faith and his works counted for righteousness, and his works made his faith perfect (Romans 4:5, James 2:22).
Surely, it is possible that someone is saved on faith alone: for example, someone just baptised. But this is not the general rule.
Yes, of course...See Paul's letter to the Ephesians, principally chap. 2.
If you read the Scriptures carefully, not every believer was "baptized" in water (the thief on the cross, Publius, et al). Immersion was certainly practiced and several of our congregation have been immersed at various gatherings. No commonality. But, the real "baptism" is that which places the believer into the Body of Christ. Has the Holy Spirit of God done this to you?
" 2.Which general faith group do or did you last regularly assemble with, tithe to, and accept spiritual authority from at an elder/presbyter/bishop level ?
Our gathering is not incorporated, nor does it carry an organizational name. We don't avail ourselves of the tax benefits of the 501(c)(3) advantages. We find this absent in the gatherings found in the Scriptures. So, the only name we might recognize is the Name which is above all names, the One who by His grace Rescues undeserving, broken men/women/children from their sins, clothes them in His righteousness and preserves them by His power...Jesus of Nazareth, the Lion of Judah, the Son of God, the Holy One of Israel, El Shaddai, Yahweh, our Lord and Savior. He is, if you will, the Name of our congregation.
Would you like to fellowship with us? If so, we are not like those groups which advertise "All welcome". Not everyone is welcome, just as Paul wanted the Corinthian gathering to "put the man out." We will vet you to see if you understand the Gospel clearly. If not, one of the men will meet with you privately for any period necessary (days, weeks, months) until we are convinced that you are not a disruptive influence in the body. If you are teachable, committed to the Scriptures, understanding what being rescued is about, then we will include you in the fellowship. Depending upon how God gifts you, you may become a teacher or one who cares for the needs of the body.
If you stubbornly cling to the Romanist cult of self-manufactured religion, built on man-made traditions and errant doctrine, you will never see the inside of our congregation. We will patiently work with you, awaiting that God decides to open your eyes, remove the scales, and grant you repentance...if He does at all. But, we understand the decision is in His hands, not yours, not ours.
Compare this to the Roman cult wherein gold, ornamentation, money, armies, temples, sacerdotalism, popery, gowns, hats, chantings, and every other form of idolatry continues without question. If you find their Pharisaical version of man-made religion more to your liking, you will understand why we are outside of the gate with the Savior.
Happens all the time. Someone posts a seemingly naive question trying to convict Catholicism of straying from the scripture only to discover that Catholics know their faith, know the scripture, happy to have the company of Mary and the saints, and generally despise Protestantism. Then the thread gets spammed to hide the fact that the intention flopped.
Second a few verses from James taken out of its context and teaching point (dead faith) does not make a theology
How is it out of context? St. James devotes half the chapter to this question and answers it in general: faith without works is dead and man is justified not by faith alone. What is out of context is the prooftext like Roman 4:3-5 where St. Paul speaks of one man, Abraham, and uses the passage to reach a conclusion that circumcision is not necessary for the Romans to become Christians. The topic is not faith with relation to works but circumcision in relation to faith. Similar topic is raised in the previous chapter, "we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law" (Romans 3:28). Here St. Paul teaches of works of the Jewish law and more broadly works of any law. Christ taught similar: "when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward" (Matthew 6:5). But that is not what St. James is talking about: he is talking of good works done in self-denial out of a desire to obey Christ and imitate Christ. Those are urged throughout the Holy Scripture, because they are generally necessary for salvation:
But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour: That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting. It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. (Titus 3:4-8)God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:4-10)
What the good works are we learn form Christ where He directly explains how men are justified: by their good works (Matthew 25:31-46). St. Paul teaches no different when he comes to that subject:
will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 2:6-10)
To say that James 2:14-26 is out of context on the role of good works is to admit poor acquaintance with the Holy Scripture.
If we read the entire epistle of James, we see no bold statements
I think, "the Protestant faith is dead" is pretty bold. 3 thousand posts and counting, gasping for air.
All of His teaching must be in the light of His death and resurrection.
Very true. This is why good works are necessary in imitation of Him, this is why prayer to Mary is necessary and the company of his saints is necessary in the life of a Christian in order to learn to be with Him in Heaven. This is also why deleting parts of Christ's message that you don't like deadens the Protestant religion.
Now to your proof texts.
Rom. 3:28-30, Gal 2:16,21, Gal 3:5-6,24, Phil. 3:9
... speaks of works of the law, has no bearing on the role of good works in justification and is, of course, Catholic teaching.
Rom. 4:5I
The context is circumcision and acceptance of Romans without it; the example is Abraham whose good works are known to us and St. James mentions some. It is not a general rule applicable also to those who can work.
Rom. 5:1
...does not say "faith alone". There are many passages that, rightly, praise the Catholic Christian faith. There is no passage that says that the proper Catholic Christian faith ought to be separated from good works and is alone salvific.
Rom. 9:30, similar Rom. 10:4
That faith in Jesus leads to salvation is Catholic teaching. But if you believe in Jesus you have to do what He teaches; the demons "believed" Him also. "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
Rom. 11:6, Eph. 2:8-9 (Eph 2:10 is always carefully omitted by Protestant scripture lovers)
correct, Catholic teaching. Grace cannot be obtained through works, it is a gift of God. We ARE saved by grace alone.
So what can we conclude with the above body of evidence? Works save?
We can conclude that the poster does not seem to understand the question. Works of law, works done for "boasting" or for money, or for prestige, or for other temporal reward do not save. Works that do save are explained in the same passage that also describes who is and who is not saved: the second part of Matthew 25. Work of any kind do not save alone: faith is necessary for salvation. Faith must be perfected by good works done in imitation of Christ and His saints. This is why a good start on the road to salvation is to learn about saints and their works and ask for their guidance and they will make your faith perfect and lead you to Christ. Go.
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