Posted on 12/07/2014 10:40:37 AM PST by wmfights
Hey, I was just going by what YOU posted. I do find it interesting that when you are challenged on your "selective" Scripture quoting, you revert to the tired and ragged, "You aren't in the 'right' church so don't go trying to understand God's word." Like I have said repeatedly, my salvation is secure in Jesus Christ and I live for God, doing the works He has created for me to do, not so that I may one day BE saved but because I AM saved. Glory to God!
“Notice that He is sending His angels to gather ‘following that distress’. The distress He is talking about is found earlier and we see that is talking about the distress of the tribulation.”
That is exactly what I said. This gathering of the elect follows the signs in the heavens (namely the sun and moon being turned to darkness) which occur IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation.
“So it is at the end of the tribulation that the angels are gathering the elect but that is not talking about the ‘elect’ who have been saved during this age of grace.”
I do not see any evidence to support this claim.
“Those who have been saved during this age of grace... are ‘caught up in the twinkling of an eye’. There are no angels sent to gather. We are all ‘caught up’ to meet Jesus in the air.”
It is exactly because not every detail is given in every passage that it is necessary to carefully study them to see if they are the same event or not. Just because Paul does not specifically explain the mechanism by which Church-age believers are gathered, does not mean that it is not done by angels. The term “gathering” is used by Paul to describe the rapture of the church:
2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...
“The wrath begins already at the sixth seal.”
The Day of Wrath comes AFTER the events of the sixth seal. All of these people of the earth wail NOW? Why? Over a third of the planet has died. There have been wars, famines, diseases, but no outcry until now about the Day of Wrath. Why? The world recognizes the signs in the heavens to mean the time of the Day of Wrath has finally arrived. How?
I propose it because they see the saints caught up and Christ’s coming in glory with the holy angels.
“Just as Christians today do and will increasingly as we get closer to the end times. But we will not be subjected to God’s wrath.”
I agree. The wrath comes at the “end” when the Day of the Lord arrives, when believers are raptured out.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
So Paul says that this resurrection occurs when Christ comes again, AND THEN comes the END. But what did Jesus say about the false peace, the wars, the famines, and the various troubles? This is the beginning of sorrows. It is not the END:
Matthew 24:4-8
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.
After this is great persecution and the Great Tribulation.
Then, AFTER the Great Tribulation, there will be signs in the heavens, including the ultimate sign of Christ’s return.
After this comes the END. The coming of the Lord and the arrival of the Day of the Lord happen simultaneously. They both arrive suddenly and unexpectedly, “like a thief”.
When the Lord returns for us, the Day of the Lord arrives, and the fire of God punishes the wicked:
2 Peter 3:7, 10
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
[God will] give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Where is the flaming fire from God during the false peace, the wars, the famines, the disease, the earthquakes?
This is NOT the END (the end is not yet). This is not the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord follows the false peace, the wars, the famines, the disease, the earthquakes, the persecution and abomination of desolation, the Great Tribulation, the signs in the heavens, and the return of Christ for believers.
At the end of Revelation 6, the world realizes that Day has arrived. In chapter 7 the 144,000 are sealed from all of Israel’s tribes, and an uncountable multitude from every nation and language suddenly appear in heaven OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION. How did they get there?
Then in chapter 8 we see the fire of God reigning down onto the earth which matches what Peter and Paul say about the flaming vengeance that arrives when Christ returns.
Revelation 8:5, 7, 8, 10
Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.
Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood.
Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.
I said a third of the planet had died, but it is a fourth in Revelation 6:8.
The third of mankind killed occurs in 8:15.
No, that is not true. I posted scripture. You interpreted that scripture for yourself and then attributed said interpretation to me. Rather than acknowledge that error, and apologize, you have here attributed words to me, in quotes, that I never posted.
So they would have been saved by faith alone had they refused to follow the law???
Who is it that is getting married and having a wedding feast up in heaven while this destruction is taking place on earth???
When the rapture happens there are no angels gathering, there is no sighting of Jesus by the entire world. All that happens at the end of the tribulation period. With the rapture the believers meet Jesus in the air.
>>The term “gathering” is used by Paul to describe the rapture of the church:<<
Ok, that's the point the consulting the Greek is needed. It is also the place we find the distinct differences. The word Paul uses means an assembling together (gathering together) just as he uses in Hebrews 10:25 where he says "not forsaking the assembling together". It does not mean that someone is gathering something like they do when they "gather the harvest".
In Mark 13:27 where the angels are gathering a different word is used. The word there means that someone is doing the gathering like "gathering the harvest".
The difference in the two words shows a difference in what is occurring and indicates a different event. Hope I explained that well enough. If not let me know and I will try again.
>>I propose it because they see the saints caught up and Christ’s coming in glory with the holy angels.<<
That can't be. There is much more to happen before that. The events of Revelation happen in order. Christ does not come in glory until all of those things have happened. The seals happen before the trumpet judgements and it's already after the 6th seal that people know that God's wrath is happening already then. Much more is coming and it only intensifies and gets worse.
>>I agree. The wrath comes at the “end” when the Day of the Lord arrives, when believers are raptured out.<<
As I showed from Revelation 6, the wrath has already begun and it's not near the end when Jesus returns at the end of the Trumpet judgements. The believers from this age are gone before the seal judgements.
>>So Paul says that this resurrection occurs when Christ comes again,<<
I'll point you back to 2 Thessalonians 2:1 where I pointed out the different Greek words being used from Mark 13:27. In 2 Thessalonians we meet the Lord in the air. He does not come down to earth. In Mark 13:27 Christ comes to earth to defeat the armies and set up His millennial Kingdom on Earth. In the passage from 1 Corinthians He is not coming to earth. The end Paul is talking about includes all the events of Revelation from the seals to the last trumpet judgements.
>>When the Lord returns for us, the Day of the Lord arrives, and the fire of God punishes the wicked:<<
Yes it does but the "day of the Lord" is not a single day or a single event. It is a series of events. When John says in the beginning of Revelation that he was in the spirit on the Lord's day he was talking about all the things he recorded in Revelations. Throughout scripture the "day of the Lord" or the "Lords day" is referencing that period of time which includes the last seven years of Daniels prophecy concerning Israel.
Look at 2 Peter 3:10 again directly from the Greek.
and it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.
Notice the "in which". The destruction will come during that time period but at the end of it. Many things will happen "in the day of the Lord" like I said. Don't confuse that to mean just a single day or event.
>>Where is the flaming fire from God during the false peace, the wars, the famines, the disease, the earthquakes?<<
There isn't any "flaming fire" during those times. Those are the times we are in now preceding the "day of the Lord" or what we refer to as the Tribulation period. Notice that Jesus says all of those things happen but the "end is not yet". Once again, keep in mind that the "day of the Lord" is a period of time that all the things of Revelation take place. The Tribulation period actually a seven year period.
>>The Day of the Lord follows the false peace, the wars, the famines, the disease, the earthquakes, the persecution and abomination of desolation, the Great Tribulation, the signs in the heavens, and the return of Christ for believers.<<
Not the way you have it listed there. The "day of the Lord" begins at the peace treaty and ends with Christ's return at the end of that seven years. The wars, famines, disease and earthquakes happen before the peace treaty and are in fact beginning now.
>>and an uncountable multitude from every nation and language suddenly appear in heaven OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION. How did they get there?<<
Those are the people who realized after the rapture that we were correct and begin to believe in Jesus and are killed for that belief and not following the anti Christ.
The Apostle to the Gentiles tells us women will be saved if they continue in faith and works (ie., charity and holiness with sobriety).
The verse you selectively quoted - and omitted words from - was:
You were the one in error and ought to admit it, not me.
When you use the word "they" I'm assuming you mean those prior to Christ's death and resurrection. The answer is yes as it is today. The indication of that faith is their following the law. The indication of that faith today is the willingness to follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit to do the "good works".
Don’t you just love those subtle word changes the Catholic Church uses?
Take another look at post 33. I accurately posted that scripture (KJV). I did not omit a single word.
If I cut and paste that scripture from post 33 I see:
For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Let me begin by saying I appreciate the conversation with you and do not intend to be argumentative or lead us down an unproductive path. I find feedback such as you have given helpful even if I am unpersuaded, because it forces me to study more thoroughly. I certainly have much to learn and want to pay special attention to any ideas I may have not heard before or have overlooked.
Also, I am by no means an expert in languages. So I use the resources I have available but do not rely too heavily on an area in which I have little or no expertise.
That being said, I do not find the gather and gathering of Mark 13:27 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 to be different in meaning. They are different grammatically and in spelling, but I believe the meaning is the same.
http://biblehub.com/greek/1996.htm
Strong’s Concordance
episunagó: to gather together
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: episunagó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-soon-ag’-o)
Short Definition: I collect, gather together
Definition: I collect, gather together, assemble.
Used in Mark 13:27.
http://biblehub.com/greek/1997.htm
episunagógé: a gathering together, an assembly
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: episunagógé
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-soon-ag-o-gay’)
Short Definition: a gathering together
Definition: a gathering (collecting) together, assembling.
Used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1.
I believe that if angels “gather” the elect, then those who are gathered would be called a “gathering” of the elect, according to the definitions and uses of these two words.
My point is not that this PROVES the elect gathered here are the church, but that it is consistent with both passages referring to the church. I understand much of what you have asserted in terms of the pre-trib view, but they are simply assertions of how a pre-trib view can be made to reconcile with a particular passage. They do not PROVE the pre-trib view. And that is fine to assert them, just as I have asserted that the world sees Christ at the end of Revelation 6. But I am trying to support this by drawing out the meaning of many passages. We have to test these assertions to see if they are in harmony with the “whole counsel of God.”
“The events of Revelation happen in order.”
There are many things in Revelation I do not understand, but I believe that there are many sequences of events which are in order. On the other hand, there are things that are NOT in order in Revelation. For example, the two witnesses are killed by the beast that comes from the abyss. But this beast is not introduced until later in the narrative (after the two witnesses have died, been raised, and called up to Heaven) when it comes out of the abyss. Another example is how, before the seals, trumpets, bowls, and the establishing of Christ’s kingdom, we hear about EVERY CREATURE IN HEAVEN AND EARTH giving praise to God and Christ.
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
“As I showed from Revelation 6, the wrath has already begun”
I don’t think you showed it. I think you asserted it. In context, the people of earth are suddenly aware of God’s wrath arriving. They are hiding from His wrath. Nothing indicates they regarded this wrath as having happened yet. It is clear they are hiding because they expect wrath to come after this point in time. Why is this at the end of chapter 6 and not at the beginning? Or at least by the time a third of the population is killed? The order here is very significant. Further, for the first time they are acknowledging the Lamb (Christ) and the One Who sits on the throne (the Father). Before this they are emboldened to persecute and kill believers.
“Christ does not come in glory until all of those things have happened.”
Again, this is an assertion based on a pre-trib view rather than exegetically demonstrating it. There is no secret rapture. The only basis I have ever seen for a secret rapture is to use that He comes as a thief as a premise. However, I have shown before that this term is used to describe Christ’s coming AFTER the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 and other gospels. Does anyone believe that event happens secretly? Then why does anyone think there is a secret rapture based on any other verse?
Second Thessalonians 1 and 2 describe the return of Christ for the church. It is described as an event when believers enter into rest, fiery judgment commences upon unbelievers, and Christ is glorified and admired.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
[God will] give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
“Throughout scripture the ‘day of the Lord’... is referencing that period of time which includes the last seven years of Daniels prophecy concerning Israel... The Tribulation period actually a seven year period.”
There is nothing that indicates the Day of the Lord includes or is equivalent to Daniel’s seventieth week. The first half is not the Great Tribulation. The first half is a false peace and then the beginning of sorrows. In the middle there is the abomination of desolation which indicates the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Nothing indicates that this time period will last until the end of Daniel’s seventieth week. In fact, Christ said it will be cut short for the sake of the elect.
Matthew 24:15, 21, 22
Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand) ... then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
“The wars, famines, disease and earthquakes happen before the peace treaty and are in fact beginning now.”
That is an interesting proposition. Nothing in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or Revelation specifically indicates these events must happen after the treaty is signed. However, the treaty represents Israel trusting the one “who comes in his own name” which lines up with the deception, false Christs, and false peace of Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8; and Revelation 6:2 (1st Seal). The second seal represents the taking away of that peace with war.
Most pre-trib proponents do not share your view on the wars, famines, disease and earthquakes happen beforehand because they believe the rapture can happen at any moment now rather than after these things. Do you believe there can be a time gap between the rapture and the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week? We know that the treaty itself is seven years and is broken by anti-Christ in the middle.
Do you believe the wars, famines, disease and earthquakes happen before the rapture also? These directly correspond to the second through the fourth seals which are the second through the third horsemen of the Apocolypse. Do you believe the rapture happens after these things?
“Notice the ‘in which’. The destruction will come during that time period but at the end of it. Many things will happen ‘in the day of the Lord’ “
Paul connects the arrival of the Day of the Lord with the rapture of the believers AND sudden destruction of unbelievers:
1 Thessalonians 5:2-3
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
It happens then, not months or years later. Same thing applies to 2 Thessalonians 1, as mentioned above. Do you not agree that this speaks of the rapture of the church? It says that the believers he is addressing will receive rest when Christ comes in this passage. So it must be the rapture of the church. But it also says this coming will be “with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance.” These angels come with Him at the time He comes and gives rest to the believers Paul addresses here. And these angels come with flaming fire and execute vengeance. This does not align with the signing of a seven-year treaty and a subsequent compliance with that treaty for three-and-a-half years.
However, it does align perfectly with a return of Christ that happens after the completion of the sixth seal judgments, when all the people of the earth mourn and hide from the coming wrath, an uncountable multitude of believers “come out of the Great Tribulation” and into God’s presence, and fiery judgments begin to be executed by angles.
“The end Paul is talking about includes all the events of Revelation from the seals to the last trumpet judgements. “
We agree completely about the distinction between meeting the Lord in the air and His return to earth, but including the seals of Revelation in this “end” time period is problematic when you consider that the things that Jesus say are the beginning of sorrows and not the end match exactly with the seals of Revelation.
“Those are the people [the great multitude in Revelation 7] who realized after the rapture that we were correct and begin to believe in Jesus and are killed for that belief and not following the anti Christ. “
There is nothing in chapter 7 that indicates they were killed. In fact, it does not even indicate they died. They came out of the Great Tribulation. Again, as you assert what fits with a pre-trib view, I am asserting what fits the pre-wrath view.
There is a major problem with trying to equate the whole seventieth week of Daniel or even the second half of it with the Day of the Lord: Joel indicates specific signs in the heavens BEFORE the Day of the Lord. These identical signs also mark the END of the Great Tribulation.
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Where does this event occur in the Revelation?
Revelation 6:12
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
The only consistent order of events are...
1) Deception, False Christs, False Peace - Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8; Revelation 6:2 (1st Seal)
2) War and rumors of war - Matthew 24:6,7; Mark 13:7,8; Luke 21:9,10; Revelation 6:3,4 (2nd Seal)
3) Famine - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:5,6 (3rd Seal)
4) Disease, troubles and natural disasters - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:7,8 (4th Seal)
5) “Tribulation”, persecution and martyrdom of the saints - Matthew 24:9; Mark 13:9; Luke 21:12; Revelation 6:9-11 (5th Seal)
6) Signs in the heavens, specifically the darkening of the sun and moon (immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation) - Matthew 24:29; Mark 13:24,25; Luke 21:25,26; Revelation 6:12-14 (6th Seal)
7) Return of the Lord / Day of the Lord - Matthew 24:30,31; Mark 13:26,27; Luke 21:27,28; Revelation 6:17 (subsequent to the 6th seal, prior to 7th seal)
What time period do you assign to the 70th week of Daniels prophecy?
I believe Daniel’s seventieth week is the final seven years before Christ’s millennial kingdom begins.
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