When the rapture happens there are no angels gathering, there is no sighting of Jesus by the entire world. All that happens at the end of the tribulation period. With the rapture the believers meet Jesus in the air.
>>The term “gathering” is used by Paul to describe the rapture of the church:<<
Ok, that's the point the consulting the Greek is needed. It is also the place we find the distinct differences. The word Paul uses means an assembling together (gathering together) just as he uses in Hebrews 10:25 where he says "not forsaking the assembling together". It does not mean that someone is gathering something like they do when they "gather the harvest".
In Mark 13:27 where the angels are gathering a different word is used. The word there means that someone is doing the gathering like "gathering the harvest".
The difference in the two words shows a difference in what is occurring and indicates a different event. Hope I explained that well enough. If not let me know and I will try again.
>>I propose it because they see the saints caught up and Christ’s coming in glory with the holy angels.<<
That can't be. There is much more to happen before that. The events of Revelation happen in order. Christ does not come in glory until all of those things have happened. The seals happen before the trumpet judgements and it's already after the 6th seal that people know that God's wrath is happening already then. Much more is coming and it only intensifies and gets worse.
>>I agree. The wrath comes at the “end” when the Day of the Lord arrives, when believers are raptured out.<<
As I showed from Revelation 6, the wrath has already begun and it's not near the end when Jesus returns at the end of the Trumpet judgements. The believers from this age are gone before the seal judgements.
>>So Paul says that this resurrection occurs when Christ comes again,<<
I'll point you back to 2 Thessalonians 2:1 where I pointed out the different Greek words being used from Mark 13:27. In 2 Thessalonians we meet the Lord in the air. He does not come down to earth. In Mark 13:27 Christ comes to earth to defeat the armies and set up His millennial Kingdom on Earth. In the passage from 1 Corinthians He is not coming to earth. The end Paul is talking about includes all the events of Revelation from the seals to the last trumpet judgements.
>>When the Lord returns for us, the Day of the Lord arrives, and the fire of God punishes the wicked:<<
Yes it does but the "day of the Lord" is not a single day or a single event. It is a series of events. When John says in the beginning of Revelation that he was in the spirit on the Lord's day he was talking about all the things he recorded in Revelations. Throughout scripture the "day of the Lord" or the "Lords day" is referencing that period of time which includes the last seven years of Daniels prophecy concerning Israel.
Look at 2 Peter 3:10 again directly from the Greek.
and it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.
Notice the "in which". The destruction will come during that time period but at the end of it. Many things will happen "in the day of the Lord" like I said. Don't confuse that to mean just a single day or event.
>>Where is the flaming fire from God during the false peace, the wars, the famines, the disease, the earthquakes?<<
There isn't any "flaming fire" during those times. Those are the times we are in now preceding the "day of the Lord" or what we refer to as the Tribulation period. Notice that Jesus says all of those things happen but the "end is not yet". Once again, keep in mind that the "day of the Lord" is a period of time that all the things of Revelation take place. The Tribulation period actually a seven year period.
>>The Day of the Lord follows the false peace, the wars, the famines, the disease, the earthquakes, the persecution and abomination of desolation, the Great Tribulation, the signs in the heavens, and the return of Christ for believers.<<
Not the way you have it listed there. The "day of the Lord" begins at the peace treaty and ends with Christ's return at the end of that seven years. The wars, famines, disease and earthquakes happen before the peace treaty and are in fact beginning now.
>>and an uncountable multitude from every nation and language suddenly appear in heaven OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION. How did they get there?<<
Those are the people who realized after the rapture that we were correct and begin to believe in Jesus and are killed for that belief and not following the anti Christ.
Let me begin by saying I appreciate the conversation with you and do not intend to be argumentative or lead us down an unproductive path. I find feedback such as you have given helpful even if I am unpersuaded, because it forces me to study more thoroughly. I certainly have much to learn and want to pay special attention to any ideas I may have not heard before or have overlooked.
Also, I am by no means an expert in languages. So I use the resources I have available but do not rely too heavily on an area in which I have little or no expertise.
That being said, I do not find the gather and gathering of Mark 13:27 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 to be different in meaning. They are different grammatically and in spelling, but I believe the meaning is the same.
http://biblehub.com/greek/1996.htm
Strong’s Concordance
episunagó: to gather together
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: episunagó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-soon-ag’-o)
Short Definition: I collect, gather together
Definition: I collect, gather together, assemble.
Used in Mark 13:27.
http://biblehub.com/greek/1997.htm
episunagógé: a gathering together, an assembly
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: episunagógé
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-soon-ag-o-gay’)
Short Definition: a gathering together
Definition: a gathering (collecting) together, assembling.
Used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1.
I believe that if angels “gather” the elect, then those who are gathered would be called a “gathering” of the elect, according to the definitions and uses of these two words.
My point is not that this PROVES the elect gathered here are the church, but that it is consistent with both passages referring to the church. I understand much of what you have asserted in terms of the pre-trib view, but they are simply assertions of how a pre-trib view can be made to reconcile with a particular passage. They do not PROVE the pre-trib view. And that is fine to assert them, just as I have asserted that the world sees Christ at the end of Revelation 6. But I am trying to support this by drawing out the meaning of many passages. We have to test these assertions to see if they are in harmony with the “whole counsel of God.”
“The events of Revelation happen in order.”
There are many things in Revelation I do not understand, but I believe that there are many sequences of events which are in order. On the other hand, there are things that are NOT in order in Revelation. For example, the two witnesses are killed by the beast that comes from the abyss. But this beast is not introduced until later in the narrative (after the two witnesses have died, been raised, and called up to Heaven) when it comes out of the abyss. Another example is how, before the seals, trumpets, bowls, and the establishing of Christ’s kingdom, we hear about EVERY CREATURE IN HEAVEN AND EARTH giving praise to God and Christ.
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
“As I showed from Revelation 6, the wrath has already begun”
I don’t think you showed it. I think you asserted it. In context, the people of earth are suddenly aware of God’s wrath arriving. They are hiding from His wrath. Nothing indicates they regarded this wrath as having happened yet. It is clear they are hiding because they expect wrath to come after this point in time. Why is this at the end of chapter 6 and not at the beginning? Or at least by the time a third of the population is killed? The order here is very significant. Further, for the first time they are acknowledging the Lamb (Christ) and the One Who sits on the throne (the Father). Before this they are emboldened to persecute and kill believers.
“Christ does not come in glory until all of those things have happened.”
Again, this is an assertion based on a pre-trib view rather than exegetically demonstrating it. There is no secret rapture. The only basis I have ever seen for a secret rapture is to use that He comes as a thief as a premise. However, I have shown before that this term is used to describe Christ’s coming AFTER the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 and other gospels. Does anyone believe that event happens secretly? Then why does anyone think there is a secret rapture based on any other verse?
Second Thessalonians 1 and 2 describe the return of Christ for the church. It is described as an event when believers enter into rest, fiery judgment commences upon unbelievers, and Christ is glorified and admired.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
[God will] give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
“Throughout scripture the ‘day of the Lord’... is referencing that period of time which includes the last seven years of Daniels prophecy concerning Israel... The Tribulation period actually a seven year period.”
There is nothing that indicates the Day of the Lord includes or is equivalent to Daniel’s seventieth week. The first half is not the Great Tribulation. The first half is a false peace and then the beginning of sorrows. In the middle there is the abomination of desolation which indicates the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Nothing indicates that this time period will last until the end of Daniel’s seventieth week. In fact, Christ said it will be cut short for the sake of the elect.
Matthew 24:15, 21, 22
Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand) ... then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
“The wars, famines, disease and earthquakes happen before the peace treaty and are in fact beginning now.”
That is an interesting proposition. Nothing in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or Revelation specifically indicates these events must happen after the treaty is signed. However, the treaty represents Israel trusting the one “who comes in his own name” which lines up with the deception, false Christs, and false peace of Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8; and Revelation 6:2 (1st Seal). The second seal represents the taking away of that peace with war.
Most pre-trib proponents do not share your view on the wars, famines, disease and earthquakes happen beforehand because they believe the rapture can happen at any moment now rather than after these things. Do you believe there can be a time gap between the rapture and the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week? We know that the treaty itself is seven years and is broken by anti-Christ in the middle.
Do you believe the wars, famines, disease and earthquakes happen before the rapture also? These directly correspond to the second through the fourth seals which are the second through the third horsemen of the Apocolypse. Do you believe the rapture happens after these things?
“Notice the ‘in which’. The destruction will come during that time period but at the end of it. Many things will happen ‘in the day of the Lord’ “
Paul connects the arrival of the Day of the Lord with the rapture of the believers AND sudden destruction of unbelievers:
1 Thessalonians 5:2-3
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
It happens then, not months or years later. Same thing applies to 2 Thessalonians 1, as mentioned above. Do you not agree that this speaks of the rapture of the church? It says that the believers he is addressing will receive rest when Christ comes in this passage. So it must be the rapture of the church. But it also says this coming will be “with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance.” These angels come with Him at the time He comes and gives rest to the believers Paul addresses here. And these angels come with flaming fire and execute vengeance. This does not align with the signing of a seven-year treaty and a subsequent compliance with that treaty for three-and-a-half years.
However, it does align perfectly with a return of Christ that happens after the completion of the sixth seal judgments, when all the people of the earth mourn and hide from the coming wrath, an uncountable multitude of believers “come out of the Great Tribulation” and into God’s presence, and fiery judgments begin to be executed by angles.
“The end Paul is talking about includes all the events of Revelation from the seals to the last trumpet judgements. “
We agree completely about the distinction between meeting the Lord in the air and His return to earth, but including the seals of Revelation in this “end” time period is problematic when you consider that the things that Jesus say are the beginning of sorrows and not the end match exactly with the seals of Revelation.
“Those are the people [the great multitude in Revelation 7] who realized after the rapture that we were correct and begin to believe in Jesus and are killed for that belief and not following the anti Christ. “
There is nothing in chapter 7 that indicates they were killed. In fact, it does not even indicate they died. They came out of the Great Tribulation. Again, as you assert what fits with a pre-trib view, I am asserting what fits the pre-wrath view.
There is a major problem with trying to equate the whole seventieth week of Daniel or even the second half of it with the Day of the Lord: Joel indicates specific signs in the heavens BEFORE the Day of the Lord. These identical signs also mark the END of the Great Tribulation.
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Where does this event occur in the Revelation?
Revelation 6:12
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
The only consistent order of events are...
1) Deception, False Christs, False Peace - Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8; Revelation 6:2 (1st Seal)
2) War and rumors of war - Matthew 24:6,7; Mark 13:7,8; Luke 21:9,10; Revelation 6:3,4 (2nd Seal)
3) Famine - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:5,6 (3rd Seal)
4) Disease, troubles and natural disasters - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:7,8 (4th Seal)
5) “Tribulation”, persecution and martyrdom of the saints - Matthew 24:9; Mark 13:9; Luke 21:12; Revelation 6:9-11 (5th Seal)
6) Signs in the heavens, specifically the darkening of the sun and moon (immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation) - Matthew 24:29; Mark 13:24,25; Luke 21:25,26; Revelation 6:12-14 (6th Seal)
7) Return of the Lord / Day of the Lord - Matthew 24:30,31; Mark 13:26,27; Luke 21:27,28; Revelation 6:17 (subsequent to the 6th seal, prior to 7th seal)