Premillennialism and the Tribulation — Part IV: Pretribulationalism (continued)

Argument from the necessity of an interval between the translation and the establishment of the millennial kingdom. A careful study of related Scripture will demonstrate that an interval of time between the translation of the church and the coming of Christ to establish the millennial kingdom is absolutely necessary because certain events must take place in the intervening period. In general, the argument depends upon four lines of evidence: (1) intervening events in heaven; (2) intervening events on earth; (3) the nature of the judgment of the Gentiles; (4) the nature of the judgment of Israel.

(1) Intervening events in heaven. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all Christians will appear before a judgment seat of Christ to be judged according to their works: “For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”1 This judgment is not a general judgment—it relates to those described as “we all,” which the context would seem to limit to believers in Christ in the present age.2 The character of the judgment is that of reward. By comparing this Scripture with a companion passage in 1 Corinthians 3:14-15, it is clear that the issue is not punishment for sin but reward for good works: “If any man’s work shall abide which he hath built thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.” The distinguishing of good and bad works in 2 Corinthians 5 is for the purpose of determining reward.

The character of this judgment seems to set it apart from judgments occurring at the second advent. The rewards anticipated in this judgment are described as imminent in several Scriptures. In 1 Peter 5:4 it is revealed, “And when the chief Shepherd shall be manifested, ye shall receive the crown of glory that fadeth not away.” Again in Revelation 22:12, Christ declares, “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me to render to each man according as his work is.”

While the time of the judgment is not explicit in any of the passages, certain other evidences seem to require this judgment as preceding and prerequisite to the second coming itself. If the four and twenty elders of Revelation 4:4 are interpreted as referring to the church—a disputed point—it would tend to confirm that judgment of the church has already taken place, as they are already crowned.3 A decisive evidence is found in Revelation 19:6-8 where the “wife” of the Lamb is declared to be arrayed “in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints” (Rev 19:8). The implication is evident that those who compose the “wife” are already translated or resurrected, and their righteous acts determined and rewarded. The marriage supper announced indicates that the marriage itself has already taken place. If the church is to be judged, rewarded, and joined to Christ in the symbol of marriage before the second advent, an interval of time is required.

(2) Intervening events on earth. If the premillennial interpretation of Scripture be assumed, it is evident that the tribulation period is a time of preparation for the millennium. Certain problems immediately arise if the church is not translated until the end of the tribulation. Nothing is more evident in the passage dealing with the translation of the church than the fact that every believer on that occasion is translated, that is, transformed from a body of flesh to an immortal body and caught up from the earth. The very act of translation also constitutes an absolute separation of all believers from all unbelievers. In a moment of time the greatest separation that could possibly be imagined takes place.

If the translation takes place after the tribulation, the question facing the posttribulationists is a very obvious one: Who is going to populate the earth during the millennium? The Scriptures are specific that, during the millennium, saints will build houses and bear children and have normal, mortal lives on earth. If all believers are translated and all unbelievers are put to death, there will be no one left to populate the earth and fulfill these Scriptures. While posttribulationism may satisfy the amillenarian who denies a future millennium, it presents a difficult problem to the premillenarian.

The Scriptures declare emphatically that life on earth in the millennium relates to a people not translated and not resurrected, a people still in the mortal bodies. Isaiah 65:20-25 states that there will be rejoicing in Jerusalem, a person dying at the age of one hundred years will be regarded as a child. It declares of the inhabitants: “They shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for calamity; for they are the seed of the blessed of Jehovah, and their offspring with them” (Isa 65:21-23). The passage closes with a description of millennial conditions, “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith Jehovah” (Isa 65:25). Obviously, only a people in mortal flesh build houses, plant, work, and have offspring. The concluding chapter of Isaiah continues the same theme. There will be judgment upon the wicked but peace to Jerusalem like a river. The description is not of a people translated or resurrected, but a people purged and judged worthy, though still in the flesh, of entrance into the millennial earth.

The best answer to the problem of who will populate the millennial earth is an obvious one. If the church is translated before the tribulation period, there is ample time for a new generation of believers to come into being from Jew and Gentile background to qualify for entrance into the millennial kingdom at the second coming of Christ. The problem of populating the millennium is thereby quickly solved and many relating Scriptures are given a natural and literal interpretation. It is significant that Alexander Reese in his closely reasoned attack upon the pretribulation position4 finds it convenient to ignore this major objection to posttribulationism entirely. What is true of Reese is true also of other posttribulationists.5 The posttribulational position leads logically to an abandonment of premillennialism altogether, or requires such spiritualization of the millennium until it becomes indistinguishable from an amillennial interpretation. Premillennialism demands an interval between the translation and the second coming to make possible a generation of believers who will enter the millennium.

This conclusion is confirmed by a study of the two major judgments which take place in connection with the establishment of the kingdom, which are related to the entire human race: (1) the judgment of Israel (Ezek 20:34-38), and (2) the judgment of the Gentiles (Matt 25:31-46). These judgments deal with the living Gentiles and Israelites who are on the earth at the time of the second advent.

According to Ezekiel 20:34-38, at the time of the second advent a regathering of Israel is brought about. It obviously takes considerable time—many weeks, if not months—to effect, but it is carried out precisely as the prophets indicate. Isaiah states that every means of transportation is pressed into use: “They shall bring all your brethren out of all the nations for an oblation unto Jehovah, upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters and upon mules, and upon dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith Jehovah…” (Isa 66:20). That the regathering is to be complete to the last man—obviously not fulfilled by previous regathering—is declared in Ezekiel 39:25-29. It is explicitly stated, “I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there,” i.e., among the nations (Ezek 39:28).

The regathering process completed, a judgment of Israel is described in Ezekiel 20:34-38. God declares: “I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me…they shall not enter into the land of Israel…” (Ezek 20:37-38).

In the light of the details of this judgment, it should be clear to any impartial observer that the judgment deals with Israelites still in the flesh, not translated or resurrected. Further, the process takes time because of the geographic regathering that is involved. It is an event related to the establishment of the millennial kingdom but is subsequent by some weeks or months to the actual second advent. It relates to Israel racially alone and includes both believers and unbelievers. The judgment consists in putting to death all the rebels or unbelievers, leaving only the believers to enter the promised land.

This multitude of details sets this judgment apart from the translation of the church as much as any two events could be distinguished. The translation takes place in a moment. The translation relates only to believers, and it leaves unbelievers exactly as they were before. The translation of the church has no relation to promises of the land of Israel. The Ezekiel judgment has the promises of possession of the promised land as a primary objective—determining those qualified for entrance. The translation of the church is followed by arrival in heaven. The believers of Ezekiel 20 enter the land, not heaven, in bodies of flesh, not immortal bodies. The translation concerns Jewish and Gentile believers alike. This judgment has to do only with Israel.

It should be further evident that, if the translation of the church took place simultaneously with, the second advent to establish the kingdom, the Ezekiel judgment would be both impossible and unnecessary as the separation of believers from unbelievers would have already taken place. It may therefore be concluded from the nature of the judgment of Israel that an interval is required between the translation of the church and the judgment of Israel during which a new generation of Israelites who believe in Christ as Savior and Messiah comes into being and who are waiting for His second advent to the earth to establish the millennial kingdom.

A similar conclusion is reached by the study of the judgment of the Gentiles described in Matthew 25:31-46. Taking the Ezekiel passage and the Matthew passage together, the whole population of the earth at the second coming of Christ is in view. If all Israelites are dealt with in Ezekiel, all the others described as the “nations” or the Gentiles are in the Matthew judgment. In the Matthew passage, like that of Ezekiel 20, no mention is made of either resurrection or translation, though both are often read into the passage by posttribulationists somewhat desperate to combine all the passages.

The separation of Matthew 25 is similar to that of Ezekiel 20. The unbelievers, described as the “goats,” are cast into everlasting fire by means of physical death, whereas the “sheep” enter the kingdom prepared for them—the millennial kingdom. While the judgment in Matthew 25, as in Ezekiel 20, is based on outward works, it is true here as elsewhere in Scripture that works are taken as evidence of salvation. The good works of the “sheep” in befriending the “brethren” (the Jewish people) is an act of kindness which no one but a believer in Christ would perform during the tribulation when Christian as well as Jew is hated by all the world. Ironside interprets the passage: “But this judgment, like the other, is according to works. The sheep are those in whom divine life is manifested by their loving care for those who belong to Christ. The goats are bereft of this, and speak of the unrepentant, who did not respond to Christ’s messengers.”6 The result of the judgment of the Gentiles is the purging of all unbelievers, with the believers, who are thereby left, granted the privilege of entrance into the kingdom.

The judgment of the Gentiles is an individual judgment, though some premillenarians have seen in it a description of national judgment. This misconception has arisen from the English translation where the Greek word ethne is rendered “nation.” It is, of course, the same word precisely as would be used for Gentiles individually. Inasmuch as the nature of the judgment is individual, however, the use of “nation” in a political sense is misleading. No national group can qualify as a group as either a “sheep” or a “goat” nation, and no nation inherits either the kingdom or everlasting fire for its works. Eternal judgment must of necessity apply to the individual.

A comparison of this judgment of Gentiles again confirms the fact that this is an entirely different event than the translation of the church. This is, first of all, demonstrated by the time of the judgment. It occurs after the second advent and after a throne is set up in the earth. The translation of the church, according to all viewpoints, takes place before Christ actually arrives on earth. The judgment of the Gentiles results in the purging of unbelievers out from among believers. The translation of the church takes believers out from among unbelievers, and leaves unbelievers untouched. This judgment also distinguishes the individuals involved on a racial basis. coming designated as (b). (a) At the time of the translation, the saints will meet the Lord in the air. (b) At the time of the second coming, Christ will return to the Mount of Olives which on that occasion will undergo a great transformation, a valley being formed to the east of Jerusalem where the Mount of Olives was formerly located (Zech 14:4-5). (a) At the coming of Christ for the church, the living saints are translated. (b) At the coming of Christ to establish His kingdom, there is no translation whatever. (a) At the translation of the church, Christ returns with the saints to heaven. (b) At the second coming, Christ remains on the earth and reigns as King. (a) At the time of the translation, the earth is not judged and sin continues. (b) At the time of the second coming, sin is judged and righteousness fills the earth.

(a) The translation is before the day of wrath from which the church is promised deliverance. (b) The second coming follows the great tribulation and outpoured judgment and brings them to climax and culmination in the establishment of the millennial kingdom. (a) The translation is described as an imminent event. (b) The second coming will follow definite prophesied signs. (a) The translation of the church is revealed only in the New Testament. (b) The second coming of Christ is the subject of prophecy in both Testaments. (a) The translation concerns only the saved of this age. (b) The second coming deals with saved and unsaved. (a) At the translation, only those in Christ are affected. (b) At the second coming, not only men are affected but Satan and his hosts are defeated and Satan is bound.

While it is evident that there are some similarities in the two events, these do not prove that they are the same. There are similarities also between the first and the second coming of Christ, but these have been separated by almost two thousand years. These similarities confused the Old Testament prophets but are easily deciphered by us today. Undoubtedly after the church is translated, tribulation saints will be able to see the distinction of the coming for translation and the coming to establish the kingdom in a similar clarity.

Before considering the opposing schools of thought represented in the posttribulational and midtribulational viewpoints, it is necessary first to examine an offshoot of pretribulationism known as the partial rapture view. While rejected by the overwhelming majority of pretribulationists and considered by them a doctrinal aberration, its issues must be presented before leaving the general field of pretribulationism. To this the next discussion will be devoted.

This article was taken from the Theological Journal Library CD and posted with permission of Galaxie Software.

1 All quotations from Scripture are from the American Standard Version (1901) unless otherwise stated.

2 Cf. L. S. Chafer, Systematic Theology, IV, 404-6; E. S. English, Re-thinking the Rapture, pp. 81-84.

3 According to the Authorized Version of Revelation 5:9-10, the twenty-four elders are described as redeemed by the blood of Christ and made kings and priests. This would unmistakably identify them as saints and in all probability the church in particular. In the text adopted for translation in the American Standard Version and the Revised Standard Version, the “us” of verse 9 is removed, and the “us” of verse 10 is made “them.” This would make it possible to identify the elders as angels rather than men. Scholars are divided on the issue. Kelly declares the elders are the church. “They are clearly saints and at home in glory,” a conclusion which he states “few will deny” (Lectures on the Book of Revelation, p. 98). James Moffatt in the Expositor’s Greek Testament (V, 378) identifies the elders as angels and appeals to mythology for support. The interpretation ultimately rests on exegesis as the improved text leaves the question open. Many considerations would point to identification with the church. For further discussion cf. E. Schuyler English, Re-thinking the Rapture, pp. 92-98.

5 No answer is given to this argument and it is not mentioned in Fromow’s Triumph through Tribulation.

“Notice that He is sending His angels to gather ‘following that distress’. The distress He is talking about is found earlier and we see that is talking about the distress of the tribulation.”

That is exactly what I said. This gathering of the elect follows the signs in the heavens (namely the sun and moon being turned to darkness) which occur IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation.

“So it is at the end of the tribulation that the angels are gathering the elect but that is not talking about the ‘elect’ who have been saved during this age of grace.”

I do not see any evidence to support this claim.

“Those who have been saved during this age of grace... are ‘caught up in the twinkling of an eye’. There are no angels sent to gather. We are all ‘caught up’ to meet Jesus in the air.”

It is exactly because not every detail is given in every passage that it is necessary to carefully study them to see if they are the same event or not. Just because Paul does not specifically explain the mechanism by which Church-age believers are gathered, does not mean that it is not done by angels. The term “gathering” is used by Paul to describe the rapture of the church:

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...

“The wrath begins already at the sixth seal.”

The Day of Wrath comes AFTER the events of the sixth seal. All of these people of the earth wail NOW? Why? Over a third of the planet has died. There have been wars, famines, diseases, but no outcry until now about the Day of Wrath. Why? The world recognizes the signs in the heavens to mean the time of the Day of Wrath has finally arrived. How?

I propose it because they see the saints caught up and Christ’s coming in glory with the holy angels.

“Just as Christians today do and will increasingly as we get closer to the end times. But we will not be subjected to God’s wrath.”

I agree. The wrath comes at the “end” when the Day of the Lord arrives, when believers are raptured out.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

So Paul says that this resurrection occurs when Christ comes again, AND THEN comes the END. But what did Jesus say about the false peace, the wars, the famines, and the various troubles? This is the beginning of sorrows. It is not the END:

Matthew 24:4-8
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

After this is great persecution and the Great Tribulation.

Then, AFTER the Great Tribulation, there will be signs in the heavens, including the ultimate sign of Christ’s return.

After this comes the END. The coming of the Lord and the arrival of the Day of the Lord happen simultaneously. They both arrive suddenly and unexpectedly, “like a thief”.

When the Lord returns for us, the Day of the Lord arrives, and the fire of God punishes the wicked:

2 Peter 3:7, 10
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
[God will] give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Where is the flaming fire from God during the false peace, the wars, the famines, the disease, the earthquakes?

This is NOT the END (the end is not yet). This is not the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord follows the false peace, the wars, the famines, the disease, the earthquakes, the persecution and abomination of desolation, the Great Tribulation, the signs in the heavens, and the return of Christ for believers.

At the end of Revelation 6, the world realizes that Day has arrived. In chapter 7 the 144,000 are sealed from all of Israel’s tribes, and an uncountable multitude from every nation and language suddenly appear in heaven OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION. How did they get there?

Then in chapter 8 we see the fire of God reigning down onto the earth which matches what Peter and Paul say about the flaming vengeance that arrives when Christ returns.

Revelation 8:5, 7, 8, 10
Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.
Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood.
Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.

>>I do not see any evidence to support this claim.<<

When the rapture happens there are no angels gathering, there is no sighting of Jesus by the entire world. All that happens at the end of the tribulation period. With the rapture the believers meet Jesus in the air.

>>The term “gathering” is used by Paul to describe the rapture of the church:<<

Ok, that's the point the consulting the Greek is needed. It is also the place we find the distinct differences. The word Paul uses means an assembling together (gathering together) just as he uses in Hebrews 10:25 where he says "not forsaking the assembling together". It does not mean that someone is gathering something like they do when they "gather the harvest".

In Mark 13:27 where the angels are gathering a different word is used. The word there means that someone is doing the gathering like "gathering the harvest".

The difference in the two words shows a difference in what is occurring and indicates a different event. Hope I explained that well enough. If not let me know and I will try again.

>>I propose it because they see the saints caught up and Christ’s coming in glory with the holy angels.<<

That can't be. There is much more to happen before that. The events of Revelation happen in order. Christ does not come in glory until all of those things have happened. The seals happen before the trumpet judgements and it's already after the 6th seal that people know that God's wrath is happening already then. Much more is coming and it only intensifies and gets worse.

>>I agree. The wrath comes at the “end” when the Day of the Lord arrives, when believers are raptured out.<<

As I showed from Revelation 6, the wrath has already begun and it's not near the end when Jesus returns at the end of the Trumpet judgements. The believers from this age are gone before the seal judgements.

>>So Paul says that this resurrection occurs when Christ comes again,<<

I'll point you back to 2 Thessalonians 2:1 where I pointed out the different Greek words being used from Mark 13:27. In 2 Thessalonians we meet the Lord in the air. He does not come down to earth. In Mark 13:27 Christ comes to earth to defeat the armies and set up His millennial Kingdom on Earth. In the passage from 1 Corinthians He is not coming to earth. The end Paul is talking about includes all the events of Revelation from the seals to the last trumpet judgements.

>>When the Lord returns for us, the Day of the Lord arrives, and the fire of God punishes the wicked:<<

Yes it does but the "day of the Lord" is not a single day or a single event. It is a series of events. When John says in the beginning of Revelation that he was in the spirit on the Lord's day he was talking about all the things he recorded in Revelations. Throughout scripture the "day of the Lord" or the "Lords day" is referencing that period of time which includes the last seven years of Daniels prophecy concerning Israel.

Look at 2 Peter 3:10 again directly from the Greek.

and it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

Notice the "in which". The destruction will come during that time period but at the end of it. Many things will happen "in the day of the Lord" like I said. Don't confuse that to mean just a single day or event.

>>Where is the flaming fire from God during the false peace, the wars, the famines, the disease, the earthquakes?<<

There isn't any "flaming fire" during those times. Those are the times we are in now preceding the "day of the Lord" or what we refer to as the Tribulation period. Notice that Jesus says all of those things happen but the "end is not yet". Once again, keep in mind that the "day of the Lord" is a period of time that all the things of Revelation take place. The Tribulation period actually a seven year period.

>>The Day of the Lord follows the false peace, the wars, the famines, the disease, the earthquakes, the persecution and abomination of desolation, the Great Tribulation, the signs in the heavens, and the return of Christ for believers.<<

Not the way you have it listed there. The "day of the Lord" begins at the peace treaty and ends with Christ's return at the end of that seven years. The wars, famines, disease and earthquakes happen before the peace treaty and are in fact beginning now.

>>and an uncountable multitude from every nation and language suddenly appear in heaven OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION. How did they get there?<<

Those are the people who realized after the rapture that we were correct and begin to believe in Jesus and are killed for that belief and not following the anti Christ.

Let me begin by saying I appreciate the conversation with you and do not intend to be argumentative or lead us down an unproductive path. I find feedback such as you have given helpful even if I am unpersuaded, because it forces me to study more thoroughly. I certainly have much to learn and want to pay special attention to any ideas I may have not heard before or have overlooked.

Also, I am by no means an expert in languages. So I use the resources I have available but do not rely too heavily on an area in which I have little or no expertise.

That being said, I do not find the gather and gathering of Mark 13:27 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 to be different in meaning. They are different grammatically and in spelling, but I believe the meaning is the same.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1996.htm
Strong’s Concordance
episunagó: to gather together
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: episunagó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-soon-ag’-o)
Short Definition: I collect, gather together
Definition: I collect, gather together, assemble.
Used in Mark 13:27.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1997.htm
episunagógé: a gathering together, an assembly
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: episunagógé
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-soon-ag-o-gay’)
Short Definition: a gathering together
Definition: a gathering (collecting) together, assembling.
Used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1.

I believe that if angels “gather” the elect, then those who are gathered would be called a “gathering” of the elect, according to the definitions and uses of these two words.

My point is not that this PROVES the elect gathered here are the church, but that it is consistent with both passages referring to the church. I understand much of what you have asserted in terms of the pre-trib view, but they are simply assertions of how a pre-trib view can be made to reconcile with a particular passage. They do not PROVE the pre-trib view. And that is fine to assert them, just as I have asserted that the world sees Christ at the end of Revelation 6. But I am trying to support this by drawing out the meaning of many passages. We have to test these assertions to see if they are in harmony with the “whole counsel of God.”

“The events of Revelation happen in order.”

There are many things in Revelation I do not understand, but I believe that there are many sequences of events which are in order. On the other hand, there are things that are NOT in order in Revelation. For example, the two witnesses are killed by the beast that comes from the abyss. But this beast is not introduced until later in the narrative (after the two witnesses have died, been raised, and called up to Heaven) when it comes out of the abyss. Another example is how, before the seals, trumpets, bowls, and the establishing of Christ’s kingdom, we hear about EVERY CREATURE IN HEAVEN AND EARTH giving praise to God and Christ.

Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

“As I showed from Revelation 6, the wrath has already begun”

I don’t think you showed it. I think you asserted it. In context, the people of earth are suddenly aware of God’s wrath arriving. They are hiding from His wrath. Nothing indicates they regarded this wrath as having happened yet. It is clear they are hiding because they expect wrath to come after this point in time. Why is this at the end of chapter 6 and not at the beginning? Or at least by the time a third of the population is killed? The order here is very significant. Further, for the first time they are acknowledging the Lamb (Christ) and the One Who sits on the throne (the Father). Before this they are emboldened to persecute and kill believers.

“Christ does not come in glory until all of those things have happened.”

Again, this is an assertion based on a pre-trib view rather than exegetically demonstrating it. There is no secret rapture. The only basis I have ever seen for a secret rapture is to use that He comes as a thief as a premise. However, I have shown before that this term is used to describe Christ’s coming AFTER the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 and other gospels. Does anyone believe that event happens secretly? Then why does anyone think there is a secret rapture based on any other verse?

Second Thessalonians 1 and 2 describe the return of Christ for the church. It is described as an event when believers enter into rest, fiery judgment commences upon unbelievers, and Christ is glorified and admired.

“Throughout scripture the ‘day of the Lord’... is referencing that period of time which includes the last seven years of Daniels prophecy concerning Israel... The Tribulation period actually a seven year period.”

There is nothing that indicates the Day of the Lord includes or is equivalent to Daniel’s seventieth week. The first half is not the Great Tribulation. The first half is a false peace and then the beginning of sorrows. In the middle there is the abomination of desolation which indicates the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Nothing indicates that this time period will last until the end of Daniel’s seventieth week. In fact, Christ said it will be cut short for the sake of the elect.

Matthew 24:15, 21, 22
Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand) ... then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

“The wars, famines, disease and earthquakes happen before the peace treaty and are in fact beginning now.”

That is an interesting proposition. Nothing in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or Revelation specifically indicates these events must happen after the treaty is signed. However, the treaty represents Israel trusting the one “who comes in his own name” which lines up with the deception, false Christs, and false peace of Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8; and Revelation 6:2 (1st Seal). The second seal represents the taking away of that peace with war.

Most pre-trib proponents do not share your view on the wars, famines, disease and earthquakes happen beforehand because they believe the rapture can happen at any moment now rather than after these things. Do you believe there can be a time gap between the rapture and the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week? We know that the treaty itself is seven years and is broken by anti-Christ in the middle.

Do you believe the wars, famines, disease and earthquakes happen before the rapture also? These directly correspond to the second through the fourth seals which are the second through the third horsemen of the Apocolypse. Do you believe the rapture happens after these things?

“Notice the ‘in which’. The destruction will come during that time period but at the end of it. Many things will happen ‘in the day of the Lord’ “

Paul connects the arrival of the Day of the Lord with the rapture of the believers AND sudden destruction of unbelievers:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

It happens then, not months or years later. Same thing applies to 2 Thessalonians 1, as mentioned above. Do you not agree that this speaks of the rapture of the church? It says that the believers he is addressing will receive rest when Christ comes in this passage. So it must be the rapture of the church. But it also says this coming will be “with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance.” These angels come with Him at the time He comes and gives rest to the believers Paul addresses here. And these angels come with flaming fire and execute vengeance. This does not align with the signing of a seven-year treaty and a subsequent compliance with that treaty for three-and-a-half years.

However, it does align perfectly with a return of Christ that happens after the completion of the sixth seal judgments, when all the people of the earth mourn and hide from the coming wrath, an uncountable multitude of believers “come out of the Great Tribulation” and into God’s presence, and fiery judgments begin to be executed by angles.

“The end Paul is talking about includes all the events of Revelation from the seals to the last trumpet judgements. “

We agree completely about the distinction between meeting the Lord in the air and His return to earth, but including the seals of Revelation in this “end” time period is problematic when you consider that the things that Jesus say are the beginning of sorrows and not the end match exactly with the seals of Revelation.

“Those are the people [the great multitude in Revelation 7] who realized after the rapture that we were correct and begin to believe in Jesus and are killed for that belief and not following the anti Christ. “

There is nothing in chapter 7 that indicates they were killed. In fact, it does not even indicate they died. They came out of the Great Tribulation. Again, as you assert what fits with a pre-trib view, I am asserting what fits the pre-wrath view.

There is a major problem with trying to equate the whole seventieth week of Daniel or even the second half of it with the Day of the Lord: Joel indicates specific signs in the heavens BEFORE the Day of the Lord. These identical signs also mark the END of the Great Tribulation.

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Where does this event occur in the Revelation?

Revelation 6:12
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

The only consistent order of events are...

1) Deception, False Christs, False Peace - Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8; Revelation 6:2 (1st Seal)

2) War and rumors of war - Matthew 24:6,7; Mark 13:7,8; Luke 21:9,10; Revelation 6:3,4 (2nd Seal)

3) Famine - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:5,6 (3rd Seal)

4) Disease, troubles and natural disasters - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:7,8 (4th Seal)

5) “Tribulation”, persecution and martyrdom of the saints - Matthew 24:9; Mark 13:9; Luke 21:12; Revelation 6:9-11 (5th Seal)

6) Signs in the heavens, specifically the darkening of the sun and moon (immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation) - Matthew 24:29; Mark 13:24,25; Luke 21:25,26; Revelation 6:12-14 (6th Seal)

7) Return of the Lord / Day of the Lord - Matthew 24:30,31; Mark 13:26,27; Luke 21:27,28; Revelation 6:17 (subsequent to the 6th seal, prior to 7th seal)

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