Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Nature of the Mass and the need for Sacrifice
walkinginthedesert ^ | Arturo

Posted on 11/08/2014 8:35:21 PM PST by walkinginthedesert

sacrificeholypriest

The natural law requires sacrifice

In the first place it is to be seen that the Natural Law requires us to sacrifice. Saint Thomas states in the first place that there are three main types of laws. There is first and foremost human laws (positive laws), there is the Natural Law, and lastly there is the Divine and Eternal laws. It is precisely the Natural Law that we will focus in for this specific article. The natural law is basically the “structure which God creates in man so that he inclines man to specific types of actions. He designs man to perform specific types of acts. He designs him in a specific way”1

The Church states with Saint Thomas Aquinas that we are bound to follow the Natural Law. One of the aspects of the natural law is precisely that it commands all of the virtues. One of these virtues is precisely that of sacrifice. Saint Thomas further states that sacrifice is itself the highest act of religion. “Sacrifice is defined as an offering of some good thing back to God. This can include a merit or some sort of good work which we perform and offer back to God”2

The need for Divine Revelation

Once we realize that sacrifice is necessary and that God obliges us to do it, the question that should come up is, how and what does God want us to sacrifice? It is after all only through Divine Revelation that we can know what sacrifices are pleasing to God. Fr. Chad Ripperger gives a very good analogy regarding the problems we would have regarding performing sacrifices, without the help of Divine Revelation. Without Divine Revelation we would not know what the nature of God is, and thus we would not be able to know what sort of sacrifices please him, as well as which sacrifices displease him. Fr Chad Ripperger states that without the help of Divine Revelation “this is tantamount to going to someone’s house for the first time and they don’t know you, but when you arrive, they presume to make all sorts of assumptions about you; for dinner we are going to have brain and squid intestines because they think that is what you like.”3 With these types of assumptions about God, we will surely offend God by offering false sacrifices, which he never liked or willed.

In the Old Testament God gave very precise and strict instructions on how sacrifices were to be done. This is true in regards to Exodus all the way through Deuteronomy. In the New Testament Jesus himself states “do this in commemoration of me”. (Lk 22:19)

A short history of sacrifice: The reality of the necessity of Divine Revelation

Cardinal Gibbons states “We find sacrifices existing not only among the Jews, who worshiped the true God, but also among pagan and idolatrous nations. No matter how confused, imperfect or erroneous was their knowledge of the Deity, the pagan nations retained sufficient vestiges of primitive tradition to admonish them of their obligation of appeasing the anger and involving the blessings of the Divinity by victims and sacrifices.”4

Throughout history man usually tends to have a desire to offer sacrifice to God. This is true of the Pagan world such as the Aztecs, the civilization of Carthage, and various tribes in the Middle East, yet they were not precisely what God wanted. God did not reveal himself to them. So many of these cultures for example practiced things such as human sacrifice, and various other types of sacrifice that failed in some way from what God really wanted. These sacrifices were displeasing to God. An example of such abominable practices of sacrifices is found in Jeremias:

Because they have forsaken me, and have profaned this place: and have sacrificed therein to strange gods, whom neither they nor their fathers knew, nor the kings of Juda: and they have filled this place with the blood of innocents. And they have built the high places of Baal, to burn their children with fire for a holocaust to Baal: which I did not command, nor speak of, neither did it once come into my mind. (Jeremiah 19:5)Sacrifices in Biblical Judaism

Throughout the Old Testament the chosen people of God are always offering sacrifice to Him. This is true as early as Cain and able. Able offered to the Lord the firstlings of his flock, while Cain offered of the fruits of the earth. Later “when Noe and his family are rescued from the deluge which had spread over the face of the earth, his first act on issuing from the ark, when the waters disappeared, is to offer holocausts to the Lord, in thanksgiving for his preservation (Gen 8). Abraham the great father of the Jewish himself offered victims to the Almighty at His request (Gen 15). We even read that Job was accustomed to offer holocaust and sacrifice to the Lord to propitiate His favor. God is very concrete and explicit in how he wants the Jewish to offer sacrifices in the book of Exodus.

The sacrifice at Calvary and the Mass

It is precisely the Holy Sacrifice at Calvary which constitutes the perfect and eternal sacrifice which could ever be offered up. It is in this specific moment in which our redemption is brought about, and which the submit of Salvation History reaches its climax. It is this precise sacrifice that fulfilled all the Old Testament Sacrifices.

Many Protestants thus while acknowledging both the reality regarding the perfection of the Sacrifice at Calvary, and also acknowledging the reality that Christ abolished the Old Testament sacrifices of the Jews, end up at a false conclusion. They conclude that because the Sacrifice of Calvary is perfect and because it is thus the fulfillment of all the Old Testament sacrifices, that Christ himself abolished the need for any more sacrifices. This is clearly not true. We should thus ask ourselves, did God in rejecting the Jewish oblations (sacrifices) or even in fulfilling them, deem or intend to abolish all sacrifices altogether? Rather Christ rejected and even fulfilled the Old Testament sacrifices, namely because they were simply types or prefigurements for the perfect sacrifice of God Himself, which we commemorate in a real way in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

This then leads us to one of the main aspects of the Mass, namely that it is the same sacrifice as that of Calvary.

The Mass the same sacrifice as Calvary

In the Sacrifice of the Mass, Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross is made present, its memory is celebrated, and its saving power is applied. (De Fide)
The Catechism of the Council of Trent states the reality of the Mass being the same sacrifice as that of Calvary. It is only the form that is different, where one is a bloody sacrifice, the other is done in an unbloody way, but the sacrifice is still completely the same:

We therefore confess that the Sacrifice of the Mass is and ought to be considered one and the same Sacrifice as that of the Cross, for the victim is one and the same, namely, Christ Our Lord, who offered Himself, once only, a bloody Sacrifice on the altar of the Cross. The bloody and unbloody victim are not two, but one victim only, whose sacrifice is daily renewed in the Eucharist, in obedience to the command of Our Lord; Do this for a commemoration of me5 The same Catechism further states that just as Christ was the one offering himself up at Calvary, the same Christ offers Himself up at each Mass through the priest who acts in persona Christi:

The Priest is also one and the same, Christ the Lord; for the minister who offers Sacrifice, consecrate the holy mysteries, not in their person, but in that of Christ, as the words of Consecration itself show, for the priest does not say: This is the body of Christ, but, This is My Body, and thus acting in the Person of Christ the Lord, he changes the substance of the bread and wine into the true substance of His Body and Blood6

For this reason it is completely false to believe as many Protestants do, that we somehow "re-sacrifice" Christ at each Mass. Rather we simply offer up the same sacrifice at Calvary, which is re-presented in a real and literal way during the Mass. The Sacrifice at Calvary was so perfect, that it is Eternal and with no end. The Mass as the perfect prayer

Another aspect of the Mass is that just as it is the perfect sacrifice (since it is the same sacrifice as that of Calvary, which is perfect), the Mass is also the perfect prayer of the Church. This is why Pope Saint Pius X stated so explicitly:

The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart and mouth all that happens at the Altar. Further, you must pray with the Priest the holy words said by him in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens on the Altar. When acting in this way you have prayed Holy Mass.”

“Don’t pray at Holy Mass, but pray the Holy Mass" This is why it is very reasonable that the “active participation” in the liturgy which the Council Fathers of Vatican II had in mind, did not necessarily involve what has come to be “the clericalization of the laity” in which in order to actively participate in the liturgy, you are almost obliged to do some type of Church ministry. This includes being an Extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, a lecturer, and various other things. Rather an active participation is nothing other than following along and uniting your prayers with that of the Priest who is celebrating the Mass. It involves uniting your prayers with the priest at the scene of Calvary which is what is being literally and really being made present. The Mass should thus be one of constant meditation and of interior participation in the Mass and not so much exterior activity. There is a due reverent silence that is given at Mass.

The Various Effects of Mass

Fr. Chad Ripperger states “Because Mass is itself the same sacrifice at Calvary which is made presented to us in the Mass, it is the font of all graces. Redemption and the obliteration of sin was the result of the Holy Sacrifice at Calvary. The same thing happens during each Mass that we attend, it is as if Christ’s blood was being shed again and being offered up, but this time in an un-bloody way, yet the same graces are granted.”7

It is precisely because the Mass is the same sacrifice as that of Calvary, that it has many effects that come whenever a Mass is celebrated and whenever we ourselves attend it.

The Mass itself gives us the opportunity for Holy Communion. “each sacrament according to the Church has specific effects that are proper to that sacrament. This is what is known as sacramental graces. Each sacrament gives us specific graces which allows us to achieve the finality in which that sacrament is directed towards”8 In the case of the Mass we receive Holy Communion. Just as we get nurtured and remain healthy when we receive natural food, Holy Communion we feed on the supernatural food that is Christ’s body, we are thus less vulnerable to fall into Mortal and Venial Sin.

When we go to Mass we receive the same effects as that of Calvary. That means that we receive redemption, but we also grow in virtue. When we are attending Mass, we have the freedom for praying and petitioning God for the various virtues which we lack in. The prayers of Mass also help cleanse us from all venial sin.

Mass itself also provides an orientation for the rest of the day. It helps organize the rest of the day, reminding us what saint Ignatius of Loyola would call “Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam” which is Latin for “For the Greater Glory of God”. The reason why the Mass helps orientate our day towards God Himself is precisely that the Mass is Christ/God centered (or at least it should be). For it is God who we are offering sacrifice to. This is why I love the action that is done in several parishes, such as those which offer the Tridentine Mass or “Extraordinary Form” of the Mass. They practice what is known as Ad Orientem worship. The priest faces the East. The priest faces the altar, the same direction as the congregation. This is a sign that the whole ecclesiastical community (The Church) is offering the same sacrifice to the same and Almighty God. It is one of syncretism and orientation towards the True God who is being offered sacrifice.

A Modern rejection of Sacrifice

One main reason why modern society rejects a notion of sacrifice is describe by the fact that the reality of suffering is almost forgotten. "technology has made our lives so simple and easy, and thus hard to ignore the difficult things. Similarly people say “well if we are to offer a good thing back to God, then why should I offer something such as my suffering. The fact of the matter is that by offering it, it is a call to the virtue of sacrifice. It is not so much that the person suffers aimlessly. One of the virtues of Christ dying on the Holy Sacrifice at Calvary, is that it adds merits to our sufferings, which without it, our sufferings are vain."8 Sacrifice is itself as Saint Thomas Aquinas calls “the highest act of religion”. This is why the modern rejection of sacrifice is a sad reality. If we do not offer proper and due sacrifice to God, then we have nothing to show for ourselves. In our own particular judgement would priests be able to present God the various Masses they celebrated and offered up? Or would laypersons be able to present to God the various means which we could have offered up as sacrifice? This could include the various Masses we attended, or it could simply be the daily struggles and sufferings we encountered. Whatever the case may be, the reality is that God Himself desires sacrifice, and the perfect of these is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is this sacrifice alone, that is perfect, just as the Crucifixion at Calvary was perfect.


notes:

1)Fr. Chad Ripperger "Talk given on Sacrifice in the Mass" 2) ibid 3)ibid 4)James Cardinal Gibbons "The Faith of Our Fathers, Tan Books 1876, pg. 266" 5)The Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent pg. 275 6)ibid 7)Fr. Chad Ripperger "Talk given on "Frequent Mass and Confession" 8)ibid 9)Ripperger "op cit. Sacrifice in the Mass"


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: calvary; offerings; sacrifice; themass
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120121-131 next last
To: Iscool

Well...


81 posted on 11/10/2014 4:58:40 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: Elsie
A vast multitude of Protestants are swinging the OPPOSITE way on the pendulum: all LOVE! and no WRATH!!!

That's true and there's error in that as well.

We need a balanced viewpoint of God and Satan would love nothing more than to make it unbalanced.

82 posted on 11/10/2014 5:33:30 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: caww

“As for Protestants....well there was the Reformation and grateful for that happening”

Protestantism, a false religion, bastardizing the Word of God, teaching error and a pathway to hell for over 500 years.


83 posted on 11/10/2014 6:26:56 AM PST by NKP_Vet ("PRO FIDE, PRO UTILITATE HOMINUM")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: walkinginthedesert
The Nature of the Mass and the need for Sacrifice

The Liturgy is More than a Text: A meditation on rediscovering a wider understanding of Sacred Liturgy
Symbolism and the Language of the Liturgy
Pope Benedict uses older ritual for his private Mass
Interesting Liturgical Commentaries from the Office for Liturgical Celebrations of Supreme Pontiff
Putting Flesh on the Word “Catholic” — Easter Mass in Bali, Indonesia
Easter Mass becomes papal pep rally in Rome
Catholic Mass revisions launch war of words
"Let Us Live With Him! Let Us Learn >From Him!" (Pope's homily at the Mass of the Lord's Supper)
THE PRIEST IN THE COMMUNION RITES - Liturgy Prepares for Reception of the Eucharist
All Should Offer Their Bodies and Blood at Mass (Father Cantalamessa) [Catholic Caucus]
Can't the Holy Father Just Make the Liturgical Reform Happen?
Pope wants crucifix at the centre of ALL westward-facing altars during Mass
Benedict XVI's "Novel" Traditions
Telling Time By the Catholic Church
Good Hymns, Bad Hymns
Order of the Mass (New Translation Catechesis Part I)(Catholic Caucus)
Open Ears, Open Heart (Preparing to Receive the Liturgy of the Word each Sunday)
Effort to stop new liturgical translations at USCCB meeting fails
Church Awaits Word on Liturgical Reform
Vatican Denies Liturgical Reform Reports
(Cardinal) Newman on Rites and Ceremonies
Explains The Supreme Importance Of The Liturgy

Altar Card for the Modern Roman Liturgy
Slating the Chairs (USCCB prepares for its November plenary session)
Mass appeal: "It's like Jolt Cola for the Soul" [Catholic Caucus]
All Four Pending Liturgical Items Pass; Work On The Translation Of The New Roman Missal Continues
WHERE THE PRIEST SHOULD BEGIN MASS
GUIDELINES FOR THE PUBLICATION OF LITURGICAL BOOKS [New Missal] (Long)
AND WITH YOUR SPIRIT, Et cum spiritu tuo, (New Missal liturgical translations)
The New Missal - Historic Moment in Liturgical Renewal [Bishop Serratelli]
Know Him in the Breaking of Bread - A Guide to the Mass
Vatican liturgical official makes new plea for 'reform of the reform'
Liturgical Vestments (and prayers the priest says while vesting for Mass)
Vestments… Tools of the Liturgical Trade! [Ecumenical]
The (Catholic) Mass (as explained by a youth for Evangelical friends) [Ecumenical]
What the Catholic Mass means to converts
The "Old" Liturgical Movement: 1947 "Benedictine" Arrangement [Catholic Caucus]
Good News for the [Catholic] Liturgy
'An Ordinance Forever' - The Biblical Origins of the Mass [Ecumenical]
The Sacrifice of the Mass: Liturgical Vestments
What Do You See at (Catholic) Mass?
Purification of Sacred Vessels in U.S. (and more on the Purification of our Lord)

Tyranny of Words (Catholic liturgy - NO vs. TLM)
Mass should be enlightening and elevating, not a cookie cutter ritual
What You {Catholics} Need to Know: Mass (Sacred Liturgy) [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
"The Catholic Mass ... Revealed"
The Battle Over the Mass [Catholic Caucus]
Scriptural Basis of the Mass as Sacrifice (Where is that in the Bible?)
Giving to God in Mass [Liturgy of the Eucharist]
Liturgy, Learning and the Language of the Catholic Faith
Cardinal Arinze's Mass Etiquette 101
Prostration and Vestments on Good Friday And More on the Precious Bloodbr> Catholic Liturgy - Funeral Masses for a Suicide And More on Confession for RCIA Candidates
The Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - A Primer for Clueless Catholics (Part 1)
The Orthodox Divine Liturgy, the Roman Catholic Mass and the Anglican Eucharist...
Catholic Liturgy - Dramatic Readings at Mass (And More on Processions, and Extra Hosts)
Catholic Liturgy - Mass Intentions
Catholic Liturgy - Pre-recorded Music at Mass And More on Communion Services
Vatican: Matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist (April 23, 2004)
POPE ISSUES APOSTOLIC LETTER ON THE SACRED LITURGY
Liturgy: Are Glass Chalices OK for Mass?
EUCHARIST: HOLY MEAL Without Humility Prayer Degenerates Into Arrogance (Lectio Divina: 30th Sunday in Ordinary Time)
The Bishop's Role in Liturgical Reform
Bishop to Ad-Libbing Priest: Only appeal Now is to Rome
Holy Mass is encounter with risen Jesus, Pope says
The buzz on the new "Exultet": here come the bees! [Catholic Caucus]
THE EXULTET: Liturgical Treasure of the Easter Vigil (Old Version)
Cardinal Ranjith to his Clergy: Communion on the Tongue Only and While Kneeling is Mandatory
Essays for Lent: The Mass
The Tridentine Mass: Why I Couldn't Go Back
Dominican Rite Mass in New York City

Clerical Narcissism and Lent
Missing the Missal’s Mass of Potential (New Translation Comments) [Catholic Caucus]
BREAST-BEATING DURING THE CONFITEOR (Catholic Caucus)
Fr. Raymond J. de Souza on the "real hero" behind the new missal translation [Catholic Caucus]
Surpassing All Expectations . . . The New Missal Translation Is A Spectacular Success
The Assent Owed to Vatican II (Catholic Caucus)
Senior bishops predict great results from new Mass translation
New prayers for Advent season [Catholic Caucus] (Read and Rejoice!)
Missal 3.0 – Part 5 [Catholic Caucus]
Catholics Revise Mass; Changes Get Mixed Reviews
Will Catholic Mass Changes Cause Mass Confusion?
Missal 3.0 – Part 4 [Catholic Caucus]
Missal 3.0 – Part 3 [Catholic Caucus]
The New Roman Missal: There Will Be Blood (Catholic Caucus)
Missal 3.0 – Part 2 [Catholic Caucus]
Missal 3.0 – Part 1 [Catholic Caucus]
Mass participation—in body and spirit(Catholic caucus)
Bishop Slattery: "They shouldn't have viewed the old liturgy...as something that needed to...
The Catholic Lectionary (Webiste)
First Sunday with the real translation

Revised Roman Missal binds Catholics across a 2,000-year history
ICEL’s Executive Director: New Missal Translation ‘Long Overdue’ [Catholic Caucus]
Vatican promotes more use of 1962 Roman Missal; not all priests know it (Catholic Caucus)
English bishops say new Mass translation offers chance to deepen faith (Catholic Caucus)
Tradition and Progress Not Opposed, Pope Tells Liturgy Conference
Welcoming the new Mass translation
A Biblical Walk Through the Mass (Book Review) [Ecumenical]
Ratzinger on Liturgical Law
Eight Reasons Why Men Only Should Serve at Mass [Catholic Caucus]
If liberals hate the new translation, it must be good.
Why Kneel for Communion
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] Clerical Dress in the City of Rome in the 19th Century (Part 2 of 2)
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] Clerical Dress in the City of Rome in the 19th Century (Part 1 of 2)
The Biblical and Heavenly Roots of the Sacred Liturgy
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] The Mass in Slow Motion – The Kyrie (Lord Have Mercy)
On the Mend: The Church in the Early 21st Century
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] Now This is Communion
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] The Mass in Slow Motion – The Penitential Rite
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] The Mass in Slow Motion – The Greeting by the Celebrant
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] The Mass in Slow Motion – The Sign of the Cross

Replies to five objections about the new Missal translation
On EWTN this Autumn: The Biblical Story of the Mass
Ratzinger’s Opera omnia on Liturgy Presented at Meeting
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] The Mass in Slow Motion – The Celebrant Goes to the Chair
[ECUMENICAL] QUAERITUR: lay Communion minister wouldn’t bless me
Vatican issues final text of the Roman Missal, Third Edition [Catholic Caucus]
Because of the Divine Beauty of the Mass
New Roman Missal Translation Contains Some Last Minute Changes [Catholic Caucus]
Milwaukee priests lament more accurate Roman Missal translation; ‘salt in the wounds’ (Catholic Cau)
[CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX CAUCUS] Clergy to convene, discuss Catholic missal changes (waah alert)
Sacrosanctum Concilium Meant Mass Ad Orientem and in Latin
The Catholic Mass in 155 A.D.
Different Kinds of Silence at Mass
The Priest's Preparation and Thanksgiving for Mass
Vatican official: "The new Mass is a passing phase. In 50 years, that will be entirely clear."
New English Mass Translation from 2011 Advent
Catholic Caucus: New Roman Missal of the Mass
“And With Your Spirit” – It’s Not What You Think
Catholics reach back to church tradition
Truth in the New Translation Series # 4: The Hanc Igitur of the Roman Canon

Bishop Tobin: Get Ready – The Mass is About to Change
The Introductory Rites: No mere greeting
The New Missal: Disaster or Opportunity?
Truth in the New Translation Series #3: The Communicantes of the Roman Canon
The New Missal: Disaster or Opportunity?
Blue Liturgical Vestments (and more on Paschal Candles)
The Future Liturgy of an Anglican Ordinariate: Why not Sarum?
Worship: Entertainment vs. Liturgy (open)
More Reflections on Liturgical Language [Anglo-Catholic Perspective on Latin vs Vernacular Debate]
Helping American Catholics Learn the New Missal
Pope receives copy of complete English translation of Roman Missal
[Catholic Caucus] Prayer and Belief [Pope Benedict targets abuses in the liturgy]
Pope hopes English translation of Missal will be 'springboard for a renewal'
New Mass Translation Given Rome's Approval
Prayer, Magic, Superstition and the Mediaeval Liturgy
The Old Mass Returns
Live Thread: Pontifical High Mass, National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception (Ecumenical)
The Coptic Orthodox Divine Liturgy (for those interested in comparative liturgies)
Card. Castrillon-Hoyos Out At Latin Mass - Breaking
44% of Germans Want the Old Mass

Pope Benedict uses older ritual for his private Mass
Interesting Liturgical Commentaries from the Office for Liturgical Celebrations of Supreme Pontiff
Putting Flesh on the Word “Catholic” — Easter Mass in Bali, Indonesia
Easter Mass becomes papal pep rally in Rome
Catholic Mass revisions launch war of words
"Let Us Live With Him! Let Us Learn >From Him!" (Pope's homily at the Mass of the Lord's Supper)
THE PRIEST IN THE COMMUNION RITES - Liturgy Prepares for Reception of the Eucharist
All Should Offer Their Bodies and Blood at Mass (Father Cantalamessa) [Catholic Caucus]
Can't the Holy Father Just Make the Liturgical Reform Happen?
Pope wants crucifix at the centre of ALL westward-facing altars during Mass
Benedict XVI's "Novel" Traditions
Telling Time By the Catholic Church
Good Hymns, Bad Hymns
Order of the Mass (New Translation Catechesis Part I)(Catholic Caucus)
Open Ears, Open Heart (Preparing to Receive the Liturgy of the Word each Sunday)
Effort to stop new liturgical translations at USCCB meeting fails
Church Awaits Word on Liturgical Reform
Vatican Denies Liturgical Reform Reports
(Cardinal) Newman on Rites and Ceremonies
Explains The Supreme Importance Of The Liturgy

Altar Card for the Modern Roman Liturgy
Slating the Chairs (USCCB prepares for its November plenary session)
Mass appeal: "It's like Jolt Cola for the Soul" [Catholic Caucus]
All Four Pending Liturgical Items Pass; Work On The Translation Of The New Roman Missal Continues
WHERE THE PRIEST SHOULD BEGIN MASS
GUIDELINES FOR THE PUBLICATION OF LITURGICAL BOOKS [New Missal] (Long)
AND WITH YOUR SPIRIT, Et cum spiritu tuo, (New Missal liturgical translations)
The New Missal - Historic Moment in Liturgical Renewal [Bishop Serratelli]
Know Him in the Breaking of Bread - A Guide to the Mass
Vatican liturgical official makes new plea for 'reform of the reform'
Liturgical Vestments (and prayers the priest says while vesting for Mass)
Vestments… Tools of the Liturgical Trade! [Ecumenical]
The (Catholic) Mass (as explained by a youth for Evangelical friends) [Ecumenical]
What the Catholic Mass means to converts
The "Old" Liturgical Movement: 1947 "Benedictine" Arrangement [Catholic Caucus]
Good News for the [Catholic] Liturgy
'An Ordinance Forever' - The Biblical Origins of the Mass [Ecumenical]
The Sacrifice of the Mass: Liturgical Vestments
What Do You See at (Catholic) Mass?
Purification of Sacred Vessels in U.S. (and more on the Purification of our Lord)

Tyranny of Words (Catholic liturgy - NO vs. TLM)
Mass should be enlightening and elevating, not a cookie cutter ritual
What You {Catholics} Need to Know: Mass (Sacred Liturgy) [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
"The Catholic Mass ... Revealed"
The Battle Over the Mass [Catholic Caucus]
Scriptural Basis of the Mass as Sacrifice (Where is that in the Bible?)
Giving to God in Mass [Liturgy of the Eucharist]
Liturgy, Learning and the Language of the Catholic Faith
Cardinal Arinze's Mass Etiquette 101
Prostration and Vestments on Good Friday And More on the Precious Bloodbr> Catholic Liturgy - Funeral Masses for a Suicide And More on Confession for RCIA Candidates
The Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - A Primer for Clueless Catholics (Part 1)
The Orthodox Divine Liturgy, the Roman Catholic Mass and the Anglican Eucharist...
Catholic Liturgy - Dramatic Readings at Mass (And More on Processions, and Extra Hosts)
Catholic Liturgy - Mass Intentions
Catholic Liturgy - Pre-recorded Music at Mass And More on Communion Services
Vatican: Matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist (April 23, 2004)
POPE ISSUES APOSTOLIC LETTER ON THE SACRED LITURGY
Liturgy: Are Glass Chalices OK for Mass?
EUCHARIST: HOLY MEAL

84 posted on 11/10/2014 7:31:28 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NKP_Vet

History doesn’t agree.


85 posted on 11/10/2014 10:45:26 AM PST by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | View Replies]

To: caww

“History doesn’t agree”.

Clarification.

Protestantism doesn’t agree. Which has spread errors of the gospel for over 500 years. The Bible is a Catholic Document. Written by Catholics, canonized by the Catholic Church. If you agree with the 27 books of the New Testament you have accepted the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. Those 27 books were determined to be the inspired Word of God by the Catholic Church. End of story.


86 posted on 11/10/2014 11:14:22 AM PST by NKP_Vet ("PRO FIDE, PRO UTILITATE HOMINUM")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]

To: NKP_Vet
The Bible is NOT Catholic Documentation ....if that were true the church would not have Priests nor a Pope today...and it certainly wasn't written by Catholics! It's Gods word alone and to all mankind.

Nobody needs the catholic church to determine what is or not God's word and in fact have error-ed when they have tried to do so. Just because the catholic leadership determines something certainly doesn't make it so. Only catholics believe the leadership of the catholic church.

Thus the Reformation because they had moved the church so far from the disciples teachings and the word of God says. Had it not Incorporated all the rituals and pomp and desire to be as regal as Rome and it's Government involvement...(which it still does) the Reformation would not have been necessary...but greed, murder, corruption, false teachings prevailed and does so too day.

Some will hold on for dear life to what they believe is the catholic churches authority, which it does not represent to the body of Christ, and why God intervened to bring true Christians back to the path He intended.

Further, they continue to change their positions and to teach so.... using the scriptures to justify their man made ordinances, dogma and traditions which is an affront to the true teachings of Christianity.

87 posted on 11/10/2014 11:31:41 AM PST by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: NKP_Vet
Protestantism, a false religion, bastardizing the Word of God, teaching error and a pathway to hell for over 500 years.

Thanks, Protestants; for being WILLING to face DEATH from a certain religious group; for making the WORD available to a hungry world!

Would ANYONE have a bible in their home today if it had NOT been for Protestants?

Where is the RCC equivalent to Gideons, International?


88 posted on 11/10/2014 12:00:46 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Etiam cursus turpis in lectus dapibus, id ultricies orci auctor. Maecenas vitae bibendum quam, sit amet pretium neque. Proin scelerisque orci eu nisi efficitur, sit amet consectetur nulla sagittis. Morbi consectetur porttitor venenatis. Morbi ut cursus elit, sit amet elementum nisl. Nunc consequat ante id euismod rhoncus. Vivamus vitae justo non turpis luctus pulvinar. Sed efficitur nulla neque, ut rhoncus odio eleifend vel. Phasellus finibus non enim sit amet mollis. Duis convallis vestibulum tristique. Praesent iaculis, ipsum non egestas tempus, nulla enim commodo elit, sed blandit erat ex vitae leo. Ut posuere metus eget convallis scelerisque. Aenean euismod blandit nisi sed bibendum. Mauris blandit sed urna vel interdum. Suspendisse iaculis elit eget odio tristique, quis ornare massa placerat. Pellentesque ex felis, vestibulum at sodales malesuada, fermentum at eros.

Donec posuere odio vitae odio efficitur bibendum. Suspendisse a arcu sit amet metus dictum rutrum. Donec mattis turpis ut eros rhoncus placerat. Quisque velit justo, convallis pharetra urna sed, bibendum fringilla odio. Suspendisse placerat erat id lacus pretium, ut faucibus mi elementum. Quisque vitae nulla est. Phasellus et nisi scelerisque ante fringilla imperdiet. Phasellus et lectus sit amet justo aliquam dapibus vel nec nisi. Praesent lobortis interdum facilisis. Donec mollis nulla sapien, quis laoreet arcu aliquam eu. Pellentesque et elit augue. Sed tincidunt lorem mauris, eu commodo libero sodales quis.

Etiam sit amet est imperdiet, sollicitudin augue id, iaculis velit. Sed pellentesque semper erat. Nulla dapibus elit sit amet tempor porttitor. Sed pellentesque, nibh vel viverra venenatis, lacus leo blandit nisl, nec euismod purus lectus quis velit. Vestibulum ut nulla dui. Fusce suscipit, purus posuere faucibus vulputate, risus justo vestibulum dui, in imperdiet augue sem nec nibh. Nulla facilisi. Phasellus imperdiet tempus arcu, sed maximus odio semper mollis. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Fusce consequat porta risus at venenatis. Integer sed ornare arcu, sit amet lobortis augue. Ut ut dui viverra, lobortis justo id, rhoncus ipsum. Fusce faucibus nisl est, sit amet vestibulum arcu posuere a.

Pellentesque sit amet sagittis metus. Integer sollicitudin ultrices aliquam. Nunc sit amet cursus sem. Donec mauris ante, sagittis at lorem sed, dignissim elementum sem. Duis ac nunc ut ligula suscipit dapibus id blandit augue. Nulla quis pretium libero, eu pretium nunc. Maecenas leo purus, posuere vitae dui ac, pretium pellentesque nisl. Vestibulum rhoncus lectus velit, quis dapibus massa hendrerit ac. Morbi ut ex massa. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Phasellus tincidunt rhoncus efficitur. Curabitur id ipsum gravida, pulvinar ex quis, varius lacus. Maecenas hendrerit sit amet ante vel molestie. Aenean feugiat odio sed nibh sollicitudin condimentum aliquet non eros. Pellentesque vulputate mattis velit, vitae dapibus nulla luctus id. Aliquam convallis quam in libero ullamcorper vehicula.

Aenean ac molestie nisi. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Suspendisse massa ligula, maximus sit amet laoreet quis, cursus non orci. In iaculis laoreet consectetur. Nullam auctor tortor est, non consectetur odio hendrerit in. Morbi sollicitudin, nisi non tincidunt sollicitudin, metus sapien aliquet ante, a interdum urna mi vitae diam. Ut ac dui at leo maximus fringilla nec ut tellus. Nunc vel eleifend nisl. Phasellus sed malesuada risus. Interdum et malesuada fames ac ante ipsum primis in faucibus.

Duis vitae imperdiet arcu. Nam consequat malesuada tellus, ac dapibus nulla aliquet ut. Vestibulum gravida eu augue vehicula ultricies. Donec sollicitudin arcu vitae purus vulputate posuere. Nulla in porttitor elit. Donec pretium mi vel sollicitudin varius. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Nunc eget elementum felis. Nunc fringilla dolor quis turpis interdum, eget porttitor erat porttitor. Sed semper metus sit amet pellentesque congue. Pellentesque facilisis libero non felis varius, vitae consectetur tellus laoreet. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae;

Praesent ultrices justo ut mattis consectetur. Aliquam vestibulum nibh ex, eu sollicitudin felis porttitor quis. Mauris sit amet sodales odio. Mauris maximus tempor ultrices. Duis efficitur libero aliquam egestas sollicitudin. Maecenas feugiat a purus ac posuere. Sed malesuada vestibulum ipsum, eu rutrum velit auctor in. Integer porta convallis venenatis. Pellentesque faucibus nunc eu pulvinar tristique.

Fusce commodo porttitor risus. Nam diam libero, blandit in lorem id, euismod pellentesque odio. Suspendisse aliquam enim ante, non auctor ipsum faucibus ac. Nulla placerat erat ut dolor fermentum sollicitudin. Duis eu aliquet augue. Maecenas bibendum eget tellus a rhoncus. Etiam sed laoreet diam. Phasellus varius consectetur hendrerit. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Curabitur dignissim ullamcorper purus in rhoncus. Suspendisse sed placerat arcu, in feugiat ex. Vivamus fringilla volutpat dolor eu aliquet. Sed sodales nisi mauris, nec molestie magna laoreet eget. Etiam mauris felis, aliquet quis tincidunt nec, fringilla quis tellus. Sed condimentum tortor odio, ut sodales ante cursus ut. Etiam sed lectus lacus.

Donec lectus orci, venenatis tempus consectetur eget, pretium auctor eros. Pellentesque a gravida justo, ut porta risus. Praesent et interdum arcu, id consequat lectus. Morbi ut lacinia lorem, vel facilisis odio. Maecenas arcu tortor, finibus at dui et, sollicitudin viverra metus. Mauris placerat consequat aliquam. Nam urna nulla, aliquam vel augue at, facilisis imperdiet velit. Praesent ornare purus ac urna faucibus aliquet. Interdum et malesuada fames ac ante ipsum primis in faucibus. Nam scelerisque congue lacus eu euismod.



VERSUS...



89 posted on 11/10/2014 12:13:16 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: Springfield Reformer

I think God must be necessarily outside of time by his very nature. I think this is what is meant by the “eternal now”.


90 posted on 11/10/2014 12:43:13 PM PST by FourtySeven (47)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

A vast multitude of Protestants are swinging the OPPOSITE way on the pendulum: all LOVE! and no WRATH!!!


Truth! Both sides of the coin stray from His Word!


91 posted on 11/10/2014 4:27:19 PM PST by Rides_A_Red_Horse (Why do you need a fire extinguisher when you can call the fire department?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: caww; NKP_Vet

The Bible is NOT Catholic Documentation ....if that were true the church would not have Priests nor a Pope today...and it certainly wasn’t written by Catholics! It’s Gods word alone and to all mankind.


Catholics sound like Old Soviet Russians. “Ve inwented it vurst!”


92 posted on 11/10/2014 4:42:50 PM PST by Rides_A_Red_Horse (Why do you need a fire extinguisher when you can call the fire department?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies]

To: Claud
Is it true, or is it not true, that Calvary, like every other moment in time, is eternally present to God the Father who lives in the Eternal Now?

Indeed, as is the creation of the word and the final judgment, but God deals with us in time and space, and thus Christ came in the fulness of time, and once offered Himself for our sins, and sat down.

You simply cannot make Him to be offering the same sacrifice again and again any more than creating the universe again again. Thus your argumentation is absurd.

93 posted on 11/10/2014 10:01:12 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Rides_A_Red_Horse

....”Catholics sound like Old Soviet Russians. “Ve inwented it vurst!”.....

Well they can’t do otherwise under the leadership they have and until they read the scriptures for themselves, and that with a heart and mind open to what God wants to tell them as He wants to, they will continue to put their trust in what Rome and their Priests say.

I’m not saying that you can’t find Catholics who read their Bibles. I know they exist. But sadly they are
far too few in number....and fewer still who want to know what God says. It’s to easy to let the Magisterium tell them what they have to believe and then they look for that one scripture that confirms to them it’s so.


94 posted on 11/10/2014 11:53:32 PM PST by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

To: Rides_A_Red_Horse

....”Catholics sound like Old Soviet Russians. “Ve inwented it vurst!”.....

Well they can’t do otherwise under the leadership they have and until they read the scriptures for themselves, and that with a heart and mind open to what God wants to tell them as He wants to, they will continue to put their trust in what Rome and their Priests say.

I’m not saying that you can’t find Catholics who read their Bibles. I know they exist. But sadly they are
far too few in number....and fewer still who want to know what God says. It’s to easy to let the Magisterium tell them what they have to believe and then they look for that one scripture that confirms to them it’s so.


95 posted on 11/10/2014 11:53:33 PM PST by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212

.....”You simply cannot make Him to be an offering the same sacrifice again and again any more than creating the universe again again”.....

It’s been said by some catholics writers that “the Sacraments perpetuate Christ’s Redemptive Action”.....and it’s through these grace is channeled to the individual. ut this flies in the face of what’s written.....

.....”And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:..... But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool..... For by ONE offering he hath “perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”.....Hebrews 10:11-14

and here again.....”God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” ...John 4:23-24 .... Which is not in Sacrements nor earthly type things...but in Spirit.

All the catholic Church’s ministries seem to be directed toward the Eucharist which for them that IS the real and true body and blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ under the appearances of bread and wine. But then that would make it a real ‘ sacrifice’ as well rather than a commemoration of the Death of Jesus Christ.....which then makes Jesus a “victim” again and again in their belief.

Yet Jesus proclaims that He alone has the power to offer Himself not man......written here.....”Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again....(He arose).... No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down ‘myself’. ‘I have power’ to lay it down, and ‘I have power’ to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” ... John 10:17-18....Therefore He’s NOT a victim since He layed His life down “Himself”.

So given this ‘The Mass’ cannot possibly be as they are taught to believe....Furthermore.... Peter 2:5 reads... “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, ‘an holy priesthood’, to offer up ‘spiritual’ sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.”........So since we are a holy Priesthood as believers there is no reason for the catholic Priesthood to perform this ritual....or for that matter even have the Priesthood.

I am simply attempting to get my head around why catholics continue to believe this in light of the scriptures which show clearly it’s not possible......


96 posted on 11/11/2014 12:32:54 AM PST by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212

Also...I understand that the Eucharist is only possible through the priesthood so it would seem that the catholic Church can exist only with priests.......if there’s no Priesthood then theirs no catholic church for it does seem that Priests are the “foundation” of everything else among them. Do I have that right?....and if so then how can they claim salvation through Christ is real for them when all seems to focus on the very church Priesthood and the rituals they perform????


97 posted on 11/11/2014 12:42:19 AM PST by caww
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

To: Springfield Reformer

I’m no theologian, but unless I miss my guess you seem to be suggesting that God experiences aeveternity—simply time extended, whereby the past is truly past and God undergoes some kind of change in state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aevum

God is, rather, outside time and the Creator of time. He is completely changeless, so it is impossible for Him to experience time as a change from one state to another.

Let me come at this from another way as well. Christ is a divine (not human) person. As a divine person, He shares the Eternity of God, so His sacrifice is, indeed, an eternal sacrifice. This is not just about how God the Father perceives Calvary, it’s how God the Son *offers* Himself of Calvary. In both cases, the implications are eternal.

However, all this aside, I don’t think any of this represents the true reason so many of you find this doctrine so viscerally repulsive. I will address that in the next post.


98 posted on 11/11/2014 1:20:51 AM PST by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212; metmom; Iscool; Springfield Reformer; CynicalBear

Is time *really* the sticking point on this issue for so many of you? I am guessing here, so correct me if I’m wrong, but what may be upsetting you is that you view Calvary fundamentally so very differently than we do.

I remember talking to a Presbyterian minister once and she had objection to a phrase I used “Love is the cross, and the cross is love”.

Some folks see Calvary as a outlet for God’s wrath—in the sense that God, in justice, needed to punish the sins of men, so His Son simply volunteered for the job and bore the brunt of His fury, thereby satisfying justice once and for all. This theology sees Calvary solely as a sort of vent for God’s anger—hence it seems ridiculous to extend it into eternity. All of you seem extremely—I would even say irrationally—anxious to have this event be over and done with, never to exist again. You almost seem, in my eyes, to want to run away from it as fast as you can.

We see Calvary rather differently.

We agree absolutely in the “satisfaction for justice” angle. But Calvary has very little to do with “wrath” in our practical theology, and everything to do with love. Catholics who talk about being at the foot of Calvary at Mass, who gaze at the crucifix, are smitten with the love Jesus had for us, are humbled by this laying down of His Divinity on our accord. We are like children at the foot of the cross. We wish we could stand there to kiss Our Lord’s sacred feet. We wish we offer Him consolations in that dark hour, help carry his cross and anoint His Sacred Body for burial. The cross, despite its pain, its horror, is not something we run away from, it’s something we run toward as a child would run to console his mother in distress.

It would *break my heart* if I thought Jesus did all this for me and the accident of time and space wouldn’t let me be there on Golgotha to offer my Lord whatever simple consolations I could. But I can do that. And I do do that. Every Sunday.


99 posted on 11/11/2014 2:02:04 AM PST by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

To: Claud
God is, rather, outside time and the Creator of time.

Well; I've heard this said; but I've seen no evidence of it. However, I have seen...


2 Peter 3:8 (NIV)
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years,
and a thousand years are like a day.

100 posted on 11/11/2014 2:02:17 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 98 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120121-131 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson