Posted on 05/02/2014 12:28:06 AM PDT by GonzoII
It’s unique to Rome, NKP_Vet, this peculiar attempt to drag Orthodox who refer to Purgatory as “sophistry” into it, as well as the Jews your church presumes to have replaced, aside.
Which churches would that be?
Post a link to their statements of faith that state such.
Prove that the way you're representing non-Catholics is accurate.
Please ping me to the reply. I have a bowl of popcorn, I can wait.
Christian Scientist, Quakers, Salvation Army, Unitarians, DO NOT BAPTISE. Some Pentacostals do not think water baptism is necessary for salvation. This is the belief of Jimmy Swaggart. He says it’s OK to get baptised, but is not required for salvation. Others include Baptists, Grace Bible Churches, and multiple non-denominational. All say baptism is not necessary.
So you think it’s ok to pray to the dead. Thanks for replying back.
No, I do not and neither did the Apostle Paul.
Have you considered the thief underwent his purification, as it were, on the cross with the LORD Jesus ? He repented and believed on the cross, being tortured and broken. He was not committing any other sins, or performing any other bad works, from which he needed to be cleansed. He died in a state of sanctification and was admitted almost immediately with the Lord into paradise.
Changing the subject again, I see.
The accusation was that Protestants are ignoring the commands of Jesus and don't think that people need to obey them and that they could (not) care less what Jesus commanded.
Baptism isn't required for salvation and even the apostle Paul didn't claim it was.
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
If baptism saves then Jesus died for nothing. It's not Jesus that Catholics are trusting but baptism, confession, penance, eating Jesus, whatever, because they always say it's faith + (fill in the blank).
Jesus said *It is finished* when He died. The work of salvation that He came to do was COMPLETED. It didn't and still doesn't need anything to be added to it to save people.
If someone says that baptism is necessary, THAT is what they are trusting in to save them. They are saying that the work of Christ on the cross is incomplete, that it wasn't enough.
Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
If you think that might makes right and numbers mean anything, you ought to reread what God did when any king of Israel sought to do a head count of the nation.
I needed a good laugh and you just gave me one.
Well, keep laughing here on earth. Maybe it'll tide you over for eternity while continue to wait to get out of purgatory.
He wasn’t forgiven because he suffered.
Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.
Suffering pain and torment do NOT cleanse someone from sin. There’s not one shred of verse of Scripture that supports that damnable doctrine.
People are going to end up in hell if they think they can atone for their own sins somehow. Because they won’t trust in Jesus for their atonement. They’ll be counting on their own efforts.
I have considered it. And I have found that it is not so.
Have you considered that the purification that was needed was provided by Christ's crucifixion? We are purified through the blood of Christ, not our own suffering. To imply that is to imply that somehow WE are able to do ANYTHING toward our own salvation. But, don't believe me; believe God's inspired word:
"1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he [Christ] sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
(Hebrews 1:1-4 ESV)
Once again: The Thief had NOTHING to do with his purification; Christ did it ALL.
Hoss
It`s not in the Bible period sorry! Pat Robertson covered this respectably on the 700 Club just last week.
No I did NOT need Pat to tell me this, it is very clear...In worldly terms I wish it was the case.
I also wish people got a second chance after their last breath but there is nothing in The Bible to back that up.
As for nothing unclean entering Heaven...Absolutely this is the case, however it simply means that a sinner asked Jesus into their life while they still had breath, and they thanked Jesus for dying on the cross personally for their sins.
When a sinner (we are all sinners) does this their sins are forgiven hidden in Christ, blotted out by the blood of Christ hence clean and perfect in God`s site.
Not our righteousness(our righteousness is as filthy rags) but Christ`s righteousness that we receive when we accept Christ
When we die in Christ we our considered perfect in God`s eyes only because of what Jesus did on the cross for us.
When we dont accept what Christ did for us (we reject Christ) and our sins remain hence we cant enter heaven, it`s as simple as that.
BTW the 700 Club this week had week of prayer, WOW great speakers every day at noon, was powerful
Wed was a wonderful Priest, every catholic should listen to him, he has the ear of the Pope, and past couple Popes, basically Pastor to the Pope, wonderful man of God
Raniero CantalamessaFather Raniero Cantalamessa is the preacher to the Papal Household, a member of the Catholic Delegation for the Dialogue with the Pentecostal churches, an author, speaker, and former Professor at the Catholic University of Milan. Father Cantalamessa is passionate about Christian unity and speaks around the world on the importance of unity within the Church, which is the work of the Holy Spirit.
http://event.cbn.com/weekofprayer/2014-spring/?EventID=160106&cpid=DM1404281
Amen
The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved
Saint Leonard of Port Maurice was a most holy Franciscan friar who lived at the monastery of Saint Bonaventure in Rome. He was one of the greatest missioners in the history of the Church. He used to preach to thousands in the open square of every city and town where the churches could not hold his listeners. So brilliant and holy was his eloquence that once when he gave a two weeks’ mission in Rome, the Pope and College of Cardinals came to hear him. The Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin, the adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and the veneration of the Sacred Heart of Jesus were his crusades. He was in no small way responsible for the definition of the Immaculate Conception made a little more than a hundred years after his death. He also gave us the Divine Praises, which are said at the end of Benediction. But Saint Leonard’s most famous work was his devotion to the Stations of the Cross. He died a most holy death in his seventy-fifth year, after twenty-four years of uninterrupted preaching.
One of Saint Leonard of Port Maurice’s most famous sermons was “The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved.” It was the one he relied on for the conversion of great sinners. This sermon, like his other writings, was submitted to canonical examination during the process of canonization. In it he reviews the various states of life of Christians and concludes with the little number of those who are saved, in relation to the totality of men.
The reader who meditates on this remarkable text will grasp the soundness of its argumentation, which has earned it the approbation of the Church. Here is the great missionary’s vibrant and moving sermon.
Introduction
Thanks be to God, the number of the Redeemer’s disciples is not so small that the wickedness of the Scribes and Pharisees is able to triumph over them. Although they strove to calumniate innocence and to deceive the crowd with their treacherous sophistries by discrediting the doctrine and character of Our Lord, finding spots even in the sun, many still recognized Him as the true Messiah, and, unafraid of either chastisements or threats, openly joined His cause. Did all those who followed Christ follow Him even unto glory? Oh, this is where I revere the profound mystery and silently adore the abysses of the divine decrees, rather than rashly deciding on such a great point! The subject I will be treating today is a very grave one; it has caused even the pillars of the Church to tremble, filled the greatest Saints with terror and populated the deserts with anchorites. The point of this instruction is to decide whether the number of Christians who are saved is greater or less than the number of Christians who are damned; it will, I hope, produce in you a salutary fear of the judgments of God.
Brothers, because of the love I have for you, I wish I were able to reassure you with the prospect of eternal happiness by saying to each of you: You are certain to go to paradise; the greater number of Christians is saved, so you also will be saved. But how can I give you this sweet assurance if you revolt against God’s decrees as though you were your own worst enemies? I observe in God a sincere desire to save you, but I find in you a decided inclination to be damned. So what will I be doing today if I speak clearly? I will be displeasing to you. But if I do not speak, I will be displeasing to God.
Therefore, I will divide this subject into two points. In the first one, to fill you with dread, I will let the theologians and Fathers of the Church decide on the matter and declare that the greater number of Christian adults are damned; and, in silent adoration of that terrible mystery, I will keep my own sentiments to myself. In the second point I will attempt to defend the goodness of God versus the godless, by proving to you that those who are damned are damned by their own malice, because they wanted to be damned. So then, here are two very important truths. If the first truth frightens you, do not hold it against me, as though I wanted to make the road of heaven narrower for you, for I want to be neutral in this matter; rather, hold it against the theologians and Fathers of the Church who will engrave this truth in your heart by the force of reason. If you are disillusioned by the second truth, give thanks to God over it, for He wants only one thing: that you give your hearts totally to Him. Finally, if you oblige me to tell you clearly what I think, I will do so for your consolation.
No, suffering and torment do not cleanse from sin. They have been a testing period for believers. While the thief was being tortured to death alongside Jesus, and apparently initially reviled the LORD, he later repented, believed, and was forgiven for his sins. He was purified and sanctified on the cross and did not apparently have much opportunity or inclination to sin again before his death. He endured the torture until the end without recanting his new faith. He was apparently not in need of any more sanctification to enter heaven, hence the prophetic truth of Jesus' words.
Christian Scientist?
You just lost all credibility. They aren’t even Christian.
Nice try, but no parting gifts for you!
As you wish Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all. For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me. James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Need more? All he needed was accomplished by Christ's own crucifixion. There is no purgatory. When we are called, given a heart to believe, we are justified -- God pronounces us innocent -- Christ has already paid the price.
The Thief didn't need anything more than Christ; and he couldn't do anything himself to accomplish ANYTHING. To imply such is to imply that Christ's death on the cross is insufficient to cleanse us from our sins.
Hoss
He needed to be a doer of the word, and not a hearer only. He needed to work out his own salvation with fear and trembling. He needed to be faithful unto death. He needed to endure until the end. Shall I continue ?
Odd... your "refutation" fails to refute... I do see however, a continued misinterpretation of scripture sanctioned by the Roman Catholic Church....
Your use of Matthew 24:13 is a prime example... we cannot endure ANYTHING of ourselves. Christians WILL endure to the end because we ARE saved... we seek to endure by relying on the Lord to provide all we need. If we, of ourselves alone, try to "endure" we will have one and only one outcome:
Failure.
I have faith and trust in The Lord to preserve me and give me strength to endure. That's how I KNOW I'm saved.
Philippians 2 -- well, once again we see it misinterpreted by the RCC -- we are to imitate Christ in all we do; we work out our salvation for God works his will in us. We are saved by authentic faith that manifests in us by our works (which, in James, is another misinterpreted passage that is misused by Roman Catholicism to prevert the Gospel).
1 Peter 1 does nothing to help your claim either: we purify ourselves through who? The Spirit. WE don't DO anything of our own accord -- we do it because of The Lord!! He has already saved us; Christ has already paid the price -- perfectly -- we cannot add one thing to it.
Nice try, but no cigar.
Hoss
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