Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol

reformation21 ^ | April 2012 | Carl Trueman

[LurkingSince'98]

You may want to address that to Elsie who also belives it is not a wager.

If you dont want to participate - dont.

But I still belive you need to speak to an elder in your denomination for direction slong thise lines,

AMDG

[RegulatorCountry]

medieval theologians and scholars understood that Jerome had intended to express a glorification of Moses' face, by his use of the Latin word for "horned."[6]:74–90 The understanding that the original Hebrew was difficult and was not likely to literally mean "horns" persisted into and through the Renaissance.M

The well established and by then fairly ancient conventionalized means of symbolizing "radiance" or "glory" in painting and sculpture was the halo, annalex. Not horns.

Michelangelo took the erroneous translation of Jerome in Exodus literally. Apparently the church hierarchy and laity did as well. And so, a statue of Moses with horns was installed in The Church Of St. Peter In Chains in Rome, in 1515, and it remains there today.

Oddly, Jerome's translation seems to have been bypassed in Bibles typically used by Catholics since the 20th century, despite the Latin Vulgate having been declared free of error.

[LurkingSince'98]

Hi just caught this comment

Words from a stranger are hearsay,

the same words from a trusted knowledgeable friend is.

If this young man counseled me to increase my donation to $2000

I would.

[LurkingSince'98]

Corrected my iPhone’s self correcting gibberish

Hi I just caught this comment

Words from a stranger are hearsay,

the same words from a trusted knowledgeable friend is testimony.

If this young man counseled me to increase my donation to $2000

I would.

[Gamecock]

Agaun, why are you so interested in making me vilolate my conscience?
This is reaching the point of making the thread personal, therefore, please knock it off.

[Alamo-Girl]

Concerning your challenge, I went to one sermon from Pastor Robert Morris, Gateway Church in Dallas and counting 30 verses he explored in his first sermon in the Free Indeed series.

The Scriptures he quoted include John 8:36, Mark 5:1-20; Matt 17:8, Mark 3:14-15, John 10:1, Lamentations 1:10 and 4:12, Luke 10:7-17.

There were 21 verses by my count in today's Daily Mass Readings. The Scriptures were Daniel 3:14020, 91-92, 95 and John 8:31-42.

Of course, the Protestant style is not a straight forward reading of Scriptures as I have experienced in Mass but rather a preaching/study.

Any hoot, that's one for your consideration.

[Alamo-Girl]

Yikes, I miscounted. That should be 37 verses in the Protestant sermon.

[LurkingSince'98]

you are confusing me with someone who cares about what you think or do.

As I said Elsie said essentially the same thing I did:

To: Gamecock
Money exchanges hands. It’s is a wager.

Not quite; aws the money would be going to a THIRD party; who has NOT put any skin in the game.

Likewise; no money is being put at risk by anyone other than the first person.
761 posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2014 6:09:33 PM by Elsie

again you need to speak to someone and it isn’t me - I am asking you kindly to not post to me again tonight - take it up with Elsie if you have a problem with it.

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam

[LurkingSince'98]

thanks for your offering however I am counting all the Scripture in the Mass versus all the scripture in the protestant service.

here is a good link with the scripture in the Mass and it is does not include the Daily readings you mentioned.

http://www.wctc.net/~mudndirt/Scripture%20in%20mass.htm

here is an excerpt of about the first 5 - 6 minutes of every RC Mass:

Greeting

Priest: In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19)

People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)

Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Cor 13:13)

People: And with your spirit.

Liturgy of the Word

Penitential Rite

All: I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, (Jas 5:16) in my thoughts and in my words (Jas 3:6) in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, (Rom. 12:16) through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.(1Thess 5:25)

Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. (1 John 1:9)

People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)

All: Lord have mercy. (Tb 8:4) Christ have mercy. (1 Tim 1:2) Lord have mercy.

Gloria

All: Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will. (Luke 2:14)
We praise you, we bless you, we adore you, we glorify you,
we give you thanks for your great glory, (Rev 7:12)
Lord God, heavenly King, O God, almighty Father (Rev 19:6)
Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son, (2 John 3)Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father,
you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us; (John 1:29)
you take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us. (Rom 8:34)
For you alone are the Holy One, (Luke 4:34)
you alone are the Lord, you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ, (Luke 1:32)
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father, Amen (John 14:26)

the next part explains the Daily readings which you referenced, which happen next in the sequence of the Mass:

[The Liturgy of the Word consists of four readings from Scripture: the first is typically from the Old Testament, the second a psalm, followed by a reading from one of the epistles. Finally, the Gospel is proclaimed during which the people stand out of respect for the Word. The chosen readings change daily.]

For the Greater Glory of God

[BlueDragon]

Not the "Rome" part. I said something about the prosecutorial attitude of many Protestants indeed, and in fact I was agreeing with you on that score.

No, [again, as I have already shown you] you said Protestantism always seeks to destroy something. in response to myself lamenting the need to write like a prosecuting attorney, which I must do to nail down what is spoken about, instead of having it always be subtly shifting around, as you demonstrate (and I again figuratively underline) even here.

Did I quote Daniel incorrectly?

Just previously I touched upon the how's and apparent why your methodology of snipping out sentence fragment to which you then form reply, providing some brief example there for demonstration, showing how you conceptually switch positions while employing rhetorical defense -- and a well studied avoidance shall we say, of questions posed to yourself, even while yourself posturing as providing answers to the more pointed, lawyer-like interrogatories.

That this sort of subtle misrepresentation of ---just who said-- what --- comes amid your own avoidance of particular issues, even as to your own self saying one thing -- then another, changing your own story as you go along, circles us right back to the reason for my own originally expressed lament.

You don't like my habits, post to someone else.

If I can't get you to 'face the facts' as the saying goes, then perhaps I can assist in not allowing your own "habits" to obscure important considerations ("facts", as it were) which as it appears to me, are being subtly and cunningly shielded from more direct examination.

If you don't like be written to in manner reminiscent of a prosecuting attorney, something's got to give, and I cannot allow for it to be me, though I do wish it could be...

Nothing personal. Just my own being after the "business" of Our Father in heaven ---which Rome has now long distorted, and *some* (but not all) of who's apologists continue the distortion, by any means possible.

It is interesting that on this thread entitled Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol your entree to this thread came about by way of yourself bringing image of a man behind a curtain, and how your own posting Protocol (on open threads) is so, shall we say -- instructive.

Thank you for the performances. For those with eyes to see it, it all becomes --- in believe it or not -- condensed form, difficult as it can be to keep track of all the various twists and turns the conversations take, illuminative of reasons why such a title came to be applied, including considerations in regards to what has been termed the perspicuity of scripture, and we are not even yet to a thousand replies in number, on this thread...

Should we all laugh -- or cry, depends upon one's own place(s) of perspective, with those natural arising responses from within a soul reading through this thread, seeming too as fluid as your own support, first for a this, then for a something subtly other, then back towards that which was just backed off from, to once again include the same that, while seemingly also seeking to blame it all on someone else, namely -- those protestants, and now " those mariophobic bastards" as you termed it, since the Greek Texts do not fully (pun intended) support how the Latin (NT) texts were worded.

[Alamo-Girl]

I think you should only count the actual Scriptures quoted because if Protestants likewise count the Scripture reference in prayers, amens, hymns and such involved in a service, the number of verses would multiply.

Robert Morris' sermon was given on September 25, 2013. The Mass Readings for that day included Ez 9:5-9 and Luke 9:1-6 which is 11 verses compared to his 37.

[BlueDragon]

Sincerest form of WHAT?

flattening, I meant to say flattening like bunny-pancakes, so i can pretend i don't know what you are talking about

[metmom]

She’s not a graven image.

[metmom]

Yeah. They dis Scripture and then try to get into a spitting contest about who reads more.

So what if there is Scripture read at every mass.

How many of them read it every day outside of church?

It’s not like church is the only place one can or should be reading the Bible.

If they’re not getting it on their own, it doesn’t really matter if *more* is read in church once a week or not.

[boatbums]

would not have a clue

Happens to you often.

Retract the claws, Miss Kitty. All too often partial sentences are quoted so as to imply something other than what the poster actually said. Here was Metmom's:

Anyone simply looking at that image would not have a clue what it is about without someone telling them.

She was correct and you admitted it. Enough with the games and petty sniping. We're all supposed to be grown-ups here.

[metmom]

For Catholics the Mass is first and foremost.

For Christians, CHRIST is first and foremost.

Our relationship with Christ permeates ever aspect of our lives every minute of the day.

Our spiritual life is not compartmentalized out into church and not church.

Church is nice and good but should not be the center of the Christians life. The Christian's relationship with Christ should be such that church is optional.

I realize that Catholicism teaches it's a mortal sin to miss mass, but all that does is put one into bondage. Scripture never puts that requirement with those consequences on the believer.

[LurkingSince'98]

I agree the Scriptures quoted will multiply like baby bunnies.

these are from the part of the Mass immediately after the Daily readings that you mentioned:

All: I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, (Gen 14:19) of all things visible and invisible. (Col 1:16) I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Begotten Son of God, (Luke 1:35) born of the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father; (Heb 1:3) through him all things were made. (John 1:2-3) For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: (John 3:13) and by the power of the Holy Spirit he was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, (Matt 1:18) and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:16) he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. (1 Cor 15:3-4) He ascended into heaven (Luke 24:51) and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Col 3:1) He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead (2 Tim 4:1) and his kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33) I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, (Acts 2:17) who proceeds from the Father and the Son, (John 14:16) who with the Father and Son is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. (1 Peter 1:10-11) I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. (Rom 12:5) I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38) and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. (Rom 6:5) Amen

Liturgy of the Eucharist

[The gifts are brought to the altar. These include the bread and wine and the offering collected from the people.] (Malachi 3:10)

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. (Eccl. 3:13) It will become for us the bread of life. (John 6:35)

People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36)

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink. (Luke 22:17-18)

People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36)

Priest: Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father. (Heb. 12:28)

People: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our sake and the good of all his holy Church. (Ps 50:23)

Priest: The Lord be with you.
People: And with your spirit.
Priest: Lift up your hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord. (Lam 3:41)
Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord our God. (Col 3:17)
People: It is right and just. (Col 1:3)

Preface Acclamation

All: Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of hosts. Heaven and earth are full of your glory. (Is 6:3) Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest. (Mark 11:9-10)

.

The statement I made that created the furor was:
“I wouldn’t know since I have never been to a protestant service, however, I have been told by protestants that there is more Scripture in a Catholic Mass than they hear from their preacher or pastor on any given Sunday.”

These are church going protestants who I consider very faithful and truthful. I believe that they were talking about the whole entire Mass.

So we need to see the totality of Scripture in EVERY Catholic Mass versus the totality of scripture in ANY protestant service.

Thanks

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam

[Alamo-Girl]

I've attended Mass quite a bit and they have never quoted the Scriptural basis of the phrases in the liturgy as you have here. But they do quote the Scriptural basis when reading from the podium (Old Testament, Epistles, etc.) or from the Gospel.

Protestant services likewise do not quote the Scriptural basis for the phrases used in prayers, hymns and such. And the services can be - often are - much longer than a Mass. The pastors themselves often speak a familiar verse without quoting it. In Morris' sermon I was only looking for the actual quotes of Scripture.

To be compared fairly, one cannot look at the entire Mass but only the Sermon portion of a Protestant Service. And if you take the entire (what might be several hours long at Gateway) Protestant Service in consideration to gather up Scripture references as well as quotes, the result would weigh very heavily in favor of the Protestant side.

[BlueDragon]

Of course when I pray to Mary or to any other saint I pray to that particular saint, -- for his/her intercession, or advice, etc. However, by doing so I venerate God, "For it is God who worketh in [them], both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will" (Phil. 2:13).

This is yet another example of a goodly thing being held up -- while slight but subtle change of identity has been made, with that change being the [ ] bracketed word "them" which is swapped out for the more precisely expressed as comes through translation into English word --- "you".

In the context from which it is derived, namely chapter 2 of Paul's epistle to the Philippians, that "you" (which you changed to a "them") was none other than the Philippians to whom the letter was addressed.

From the link, quoting there from Young's Literal Translation;

9 wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that [is] above every name,

10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth --

11 and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out,

13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

14 All things do without murmurings and reasonings,

15 that ye may become blameless and harmless, children of God, unblemished in the midst of a generation crooked and perverse, among whom ye do appear as luminaries in the world,