This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies.
|
Locked on 04/14/2014 6:31:52 PM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason:
Lunar eclipse tonight.
|
Skip to comments.
Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol
reformation21 ^
| April 2012
| Carl Trueman
Posted on 04/05/2014 5:57:23 AM PDT by Gamecock
Full Title: Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Roman Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol
In the field of Reformation studies, Professor Brad Gregory is somebody for whom I have immense respect. Those outside the discipline of history are possibly unaware of the ravages which postmodernism brought in its wake, making all narratives negotiable and fuelling a rise in interest in all manner of trivia and marginal weirdness. Dr. Gregory is trained in both philosophy and history and has done much to place the self-understanding of human agents back at the centre of historical analysis. Thus, for those of us interested in the Reformation, he has also played an important role in placing religion back into the discussion. For that, I and many others owe him a great debt of gratitude.
I therefore find myself in the odd and uncomfortable position of writing a very critical review of his latest book, The Unintended Reformation (Belknap Harvard, 2011). The book itself is undoubtedly well-written and deeply learned, with nearly a third of the text devoted to endnotes. It is brilliant in its scope and execution, addressing issues of philosophy, politics and economics. Anyone wanting a panoramic view of the individuals, the institutions and the forces which shaped early modern Europe should read this work. Yet for all of its brilliance, the book does not demonstrate its central thesis, that Protestantism must shoulder most of the responsibility for the various things which Dr. Gregory dislikes about modern Western society, from its exaltation of the scientific paradigm to its consumerism to its secular view of knowledge and even to global warming. I am sympathetic with many of Dr. Gregory's gripes about the world of today; but in naming Protestantism as the primary culprit he engages in a rather arbitrary blame game.
Dr. Gregory's book contains arguments about both metaphysics and what we might call empirical social realities. On the grounds that debates about metaphysics, like games of chess, can be great fun for the participants but less than thrilling for the spectators, I will post my thoughts on that aspect of the book in a separate
blog entry. In this article, I will focus on the Papacy, persecution and the role of the printing press. This piece is more of a medieval jousting tournament than a chess game and will, I trust, provide the audience with better spectator sport.
One final preliminary comment: I am confident that my previous writings on Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholics indicate that I am no reincarnation of a nineteenth century 'No popery!' rabble-rouser. I have always tried to write with respect and forbearance on such matters, to the extent that I have even been berated at times by other, hotter sorts of Protestants for being too pacific. In what follows, however, I am deliberately combative. This is not because I wish to show disrespect to Dr. Gregory or to his Church or to his beliefs; but he has set the tone by writing a very combative book. I like that. I like writers who believe and care about the big questions of life. But here is the rub: those who write in such a way must allow those who respond to them to believe with equal passion in their chosen cause and to care about it deeply and thus to be equally combative in their rejoinders.
A key part of the book's argument is the apparent anarchy created by the Protestant emphasis on the perspicuity of scripture. In this, Dr. Gregory stands with his Notre Dame colleague, Christian Smith, as seeing this as perhaps the single weakest point of Protestantism. He also rejects any attempt to restrict Protestantism to the major confessional traditions (Reformed, Anglican and Lutheran) as he argues that such a restriction would create an artificial delimitation of Protestant diversity. Instead, he insists on also including those groups which scholars typically call radical reformers (essentially all other non-Roman Christian sects which have their origins in the turn to scripture of the Reformation). This creates a very diverse and indeed chaotic picture of Protestantism such that no unifying doctrinal synthesis is possible as a means of categorizing the whole.
I wonder if I am alone in finding the more stridently confident comments of some Roman Catholics over the issue of perspicuity to be somewhat tiresome and rather overblown. Perspicuity was, after all, a response to a position that had proved to be a failure: the Papacy. Thus, to criticize it while proposing nothing better than a return to that which had proved so inadequate is scarcely a compelling argument.
Yes, it is true that Protestant interpretive diversity is an empirical fact; but when it comes to selectivity in historical reading as a means of creating a false impression of stability, Roman Catholic approaches to the Papacy provide some excellent examples of such fallacious method. The ability to ignore or simply dismiss as irrelevant the empirical facts of papal history is quite an impressive feat of historical and theological selectivity. Thus, as all sides need to face empirical facts and the challenges they raise, here are a few we might want to consider, along with what seem to me (as a Protestant outsider) to be the usual Roman Catholic responses:
Empirical fact: The Papacy as an authoritative institution was not there in the early centuries.
Never mind. Put together a doctrine of development whereby Christians - or at least some of them, those of whom we choose to approve in retrospect on the grounds we agree with what they say - eventually come to see the Pope as uniquely authoritative.
Empirical fact: The Papacy was corrupt in the later Middle Ages, building its power and status on political antics, forged documents and other similar scams.
Ignore it, excuse it as a momentary aberration and perhaps, if pressed, even offer a quick apology. Then move swiftly on to assure everyone it is all sorted out now and start talking about John Paul II or Benedict XVI. Whatever you do, there is no need to allow this fact to have any significance for how one understands the theory of papal power in the abstract or in the present.
Empirical fact: The Papacy was in such a mess at the beginning of the fifteenth century that it needed a council to decide who of the multiple claimants to Peter's seat was the legitimate pope.
Again, this was merely a momentary aberration but it has no significance for the understanding of papal authority. After all, it was so long ago and so far away.
Empirical fact: The church failed (once again) to put its administrative, pastoral, moral and doctrinal house in order at the Fifth Lateran Council at the start of the sixteenth century.
Forget it. Emphasise instead the vibrant piety of the late medieval church and then blame the ungodly Protestants for their inexplicable protests and thus for the collapse of the medieval social, political and theological structure of Europe.
Perhaps it is somewhat aggressive to pose these points in such a blunt form. Again, I intend no disrespect but am simply responding with the same forthrightness with which certain writers speak of Protestantism. The problem here is that the context for the Reformation - the failure of the papal system to reform itself, a failure in itself lethal to notions of papal power and authority - seems to have been forgotten in all of the recent aggressive attacks on scriptural perspicuity. These are all empirical facts and they are all routinely excused, dismissed or simply ignored by Roman Catholic writers. Perspicuity was not the original problem; it was intended as the answer. One can believe it to be an incorrect, incoherent, inadequate answer; but then one must come up with something better - not simply act as if shouting the original problem louder will make everything all right. Such an approach to history and theology is what I call the Emerald City protocol: when defending the great and powerful Oz, one must simply pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Given the above empirical facts, the medieval Papacy surely has chronological priority over any of the alleged shortcomings of scriptural perspicuity in the history of abject ecclesiastical and theological disasters. To be fair, Dr. Gregory does acknowledge that 'medieval Christendom' was a failure (p. 365) but in choosing such a term he sidesteps the significance of the events of the late medieval period for papal authority. The failure of medieval Christendom was the failure of the Papacy. To say medieval Christendom failed but then to allow such a statement no real ecclesiastical significance is merely an act of throat-clearing before going after the people, the Protestants, who frankly are in the crosshairs simply because it appears one finds them and their sects distasteful. Again, to be fair, one cannot blame Roman Catholics for disliking Protestants: our very existence bears testimony to Roman Catholicism's failure. But that Roman Catholics who know their history apparently believe the Papacy now works just fine seems as arbitrary and selective a theological and historical move as any confessionally driven restriction of what is and is not legitimate Protestantism.
As Dr. Gregory brings his narrative up to the present, I will do the same. There are things which can be conveniently ignored by North American Roman Catholic intellectuals because they take place in distant lands. Yet many of these are emblematic of contemporary Roman Catholicism in the wider world. Such, for example, are the bits of the real cross and vials of Jesus' blood which continue to be displayed in certain churches, the cult of Padre Pio and the relics of Anthony of Padua and the like (both of whom edged out Jesus and the Virgin Mary in a poll as to who was the most prayed to figure in Italian Catholicism). We Protestants may appear hopelessly confused to the latest generation of North American Roman Catholic polemicists, but at least my own little group of Presbyterian schismatics does not promote the veneration of mountebank stigmatics or the virtues of snake-oil.
Still, for the sake of argument let us accept the fideistic notion that the events of the later Middle Ages do not shatter the theology underlying the Papacy. What therefore of Roman Catholic theological unity and papal authority today? That is not too rosy either, I am afraid. The Roman Catholic Church's teaching on birth control is routinely ignored by vast swathes of the laity with absolute impunity; Roman Catholic politicians have been in the vanguard of liberalizing abortion laws and yet still been welcome at Mass and at high table with church dignitaries; leading theologians cannot agree on exactly what papal infallibility means; and there is not even consensus on the meaning and significance of Vatican II relative to previous church teaching. Such a Church is as chaotic and anarchic as anything Protestantism has thrown up.
Further, if Dr. Gregory wants to include as part of his general concept of Protestantism any and all sixteenth century lunatics who ever claimed the Bible alone as sole authority and thence to draw conclusions about the plausibility of the perspicuity of scripture, then it seems reasonable to insist in response that discussions of Roman Catholicism include not simply the Newmans, Ratzingers and Wotjylas but also the Kungs, Rahners, Schillebeeckxs and the journalists at the National Catholic Reporter. And why stop there? We should also throw in the sedevacantists and Lefebvrists for good measure. They all claim to be good Roman Catholics and find their unity around the Office of the Pope, after all. Let us not exclude them on the dubious grounds that they do not support our own preconceived conclusions of how papal authority should work. At least Protestantism has the integrity to wear its chaotic divisions on its sleeve.
Moving on from the issue of authority, we find that Dr. Gregory also argues that religious persecution is a poisonous result of the confessionalisation of Europe into warring religious factions. Certainly, the bloodshed along confessional lines in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries was terrible, but doctrinal disagreements did not begin with the Reformation. The New Testament makes it clear that serious doctrinal conflict existed within the church even during apostolic times (I hope I am allowed, for the sake of argument, to assume that the New Testament is perspicuous enough for me to state that with a degree of confidence); and the link between church and state which provided the context for bloodshed over matters of theological deviancy was established from at least the time of Priscillian in the late fourth century. It was hardly a Protestant or even a Reformation innovation.
When it comes to the empirical facts of Catholic persecution, Dr. Gregory only mentions the Inquisition twice. That is remarkably light coverage given its rather stellar track record in all that embarrassing auto da fe business. Moreover, he mentions it first only in a Reformation/post-Reformation context. Yet Roman Catholic persecution of those considered deviants was not simply or even primarily a response to Reformation Protestantism but a well-established pattern in the Middle Ages. No doubt the Spanish Jews and Muslims, the Cathars, the Albigensians, the Lollards, the Hussites and many other religious deviants living before the establishment of any Protestant state might have wished that their sufferings had received a more substantial role in the narrative and more significance in the general thesis. Sure, Protestantism broke the Roman Catholic monopoly on persecution and thus played a shameful and ignominious part in its escalation; but it did not establish the precedents, legally, culturally or practically.
Finally, the great lacuna in this book is the printing press. Dr. Gregory has, as I noted above, done brilliant work in putting self-understanding back on the historical agenda and thus of grounding the history of ideas in historical realities rather than metaphysical abstractions. The danger with this, however, is that material factors can come to be somewhat neglected. His thesis - that Protestantism shattered the unified nature and coherence of knowledge and paved the way for its secularization - does not take into account the impact of the easy availability of print. The printed book changed everything: it fuelled literacy rates and it expanded the potential for diversity of opinion. I suspect there is a very plausible alternative, or at least supplementary, narrative to the 'Protestantism shattered the unified nature and coherence of knowledge' thesis: the printing press did it because it made impossible the Church's control of the nature, range, flow and availability of knowledge.
Ironically, the printing press is one of the great success stories of pre-Reformation Catholic Europe. One might argue that it was a technological innovation and thus not particularly 'Catholic' in that sense. That is true; but for some years after it was invented it was unclear whether it would be successful enough to replace medieval book production. In fact, its success was significantly helped by the brisk fifteenth century trade in printed breviaries and missals and the indulgences produced to fund war against the Ottomans. In other words, it was the vibrancy of late medieval Catholic piety, of which Dr. Gregory makes much, that ensured the future of the printing press and thereby the shipwrecking of the old, stable forms of knowledge.
The Roman Catholic Church knew the danger presented by the easy transmission of, and access to, knowledge which the printing press provided. That is why it was so assiduous in burning books in the sixteenth century and why the Index of Prohibited Books remained in place until the 1960s. I well remember being amazed when reading the autobiography of the analytic philosopher and one-time priest, Sir Anthony Kenny, that he had had to obtain special permission from the Church to read David Hume for his doctoral research in the 1950s. At the start of the twenty-first century, Rome may present herself as the friend of engaged religious intellectuals in North America but she took an embarrassingly long time even to allow her people free access to the most basic books of modern Western thought. Women in Britain had the vote, Elvis (in my humble opinion) had already done his best work and The Beatles and The Rolling Stones were starting to churn out hits before Roman Catholics were free to read David Hume without specific permission from the Church.
Of course, Dr. Gregory knows about the Index; but he seems to see it as a response to Protestantism, not as an extension of the Church's typical manner of handling deviation from its central tenets and practices which stretched back well before the Reformation. And therein lies the ironic, tragic, perplexing flaw of this brilliant and learned book: Dr. Gregory sets out to prove that Protestantism is the source of all, or at least many, of the modern world's ills; but what he actually does is demonstrate in painstaking and compelling detail that medieval Catholicism and the Papacy with which it was inextricably bound up were ultimately inadequate to the task which they set - which they claimed! - for themselves. Reformation Protestantism, if I can use the singular, was one response to this failure, as conciliarism had been a hundred years before. One can dispute the adequacy of such responses; but only by an act of historical denial can one dispute the fact that it was the Papacy which failed.
Thanks to the death of medieval Christendom and to the havoc caused by the Reformation and beyond, Dr Gregory is today free to believe (or not) that Protestantism is an utter failure. Thanks to the printing press, he is also free to express this in a public form. Thanks to the modern world which grew as a response to the failure of Roman Catholicism, he is also free to choose his own solution to the problems of modernity without fear of rack or rope. Yet, having said all that, I for one find it strange indeed that someone would choose as the solution that which was actually the problem in the first place.
TOPICS: General Discusssion; History
KEYWORDS: hornetsnest
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 201-220, 221-240, 241-260 ... 1,441-1,459 next last
To: af_vet_1981
Can you show me any part of this that is unbiblical or incorrect ? BTW, i was referring to the actual texts in red as correct (and the Magnificate by the Spirit of God is magnificent), not your Hail Mary, Full of Grace prayer.
221
posted on
04/06/2014 7:50:46 PM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: goodwithagun
If you come across a post that you feel is abusive, just click the associated abuse link on the post and the mods will take a look. But review the rules on the Religion Moderator’s profile page first. There’s a lot of leeway allowed in “debate” on “open” threads on RF posts. Debate the issue all you wish but steer clear of personal attacks, etc.
The mods don’t sit here and read every post. They do, however, check those that have been reported.
222
posted on
04/06/2014 7:55:31 PM PDT
by
Jim Robinson
(Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God!!)
To: daniel1212
Do you agree with salvation that Catholics do not pray to Mary (seeing as that was what my post was about)? On the other hand, can you show me even one example of anyone praying/making supplication in Heaven to Mary or anyone else, much less to a crowned, enthroned Queen of Heaven?
- Catholics ask Mary and the saints to pray to God for them because Catholics really believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are real, and that Mary and the saints are real, and in a spiritual communion and unity through the Holy Spirit in one holy, catholic, and apostolic church, which is the body of Christ. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
- Not sure what you mean; the only text in heaven that comes to mind, and without any prayer but full of majesty, is And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
223
posted on
04/06/2014 8:02:27 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: daniel1212
BTW, i was referring to the actual texts in red as correct (and the Magnificate by the Spirit of God is magnificent), not your Hail Mary, Full of Grace prayer.That is fine and understood; I completely understand someone not having confidence or faith to talk to Mary, as long as they love her, call her blessed, and emulate her faith and faithfulness, I'm content.
Speaking of prayer, do you think Protestant prayers are scriptural ?
224
posted on
04/06/2014 8:11:13 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: Salvation
In the original English translation from the original Latin it says exactly what you say it doesn't. First you say Catholics do not pray to Mary, and now you make a misleading statement, as if the NT was originally written in Latin (original Latin) or as if that determines what it said in the original Greek, which it does not.
Lk. 1:28 and Eph. 1:6 both have believers "graced."
And do you know what the first English translation was?
225
posted on
04/06/2014 8:15:02 PM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: daniel1212
The Vulgate was Latin translated by St. Jerome. I’m sure you are aware of that fact, correct?
226
posted on
04/06/2014 8:17:03 PM PDT
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: af_vet_1981; daniel1212
Speaking of prayer, do you think Protestant prayers are scriptural ? Which Protestant prayers? All Protestants? All of their prayers?
227
posted on
04/06/2014 8:17:04 PM PDT
by
Alex Murphy
("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
To: daniel1212
228
posted on
04/06/2014 8:18:57 PM PDT
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: daniel1212
229
posted on
04/06/2014 8:22:08 PM PDT
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: af_vet_1981
Catholics ask Mary and the saints to pray to God for them Do not play semantically games. >Catholics pray to Mary and the saints. Anyone imploring someone in Heaven by favors would be called praying.
because Catholics really believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are real, and that Mary and the saints are real, and in a spiritual communion and unity through the Holy Spirit ..
And so forth and so one, but which is rationalization that ignore the utter absence of even one example of anyone praying/making supplication in Heaven to Mary or anyone else, much less to a crowned, enthroned Queen of Heaven.
the only text in heaven that comes to mind, and without any prayer but full of majesty, is And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
And which means you come up empty. Meanwhile, is this the official interpretation of your church, so that the notes (in part) in your NAB Bible cannot be correct?
The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from ⇒ Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (⇒ Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (⇒ Rev 12:6, ⇒ 13-17); cf ⇒ Isaiah 50:1; ⇒ 66:7; ⇒ Jeremiah 50:12.; http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P12V.HTM#$54O
230
posted on
04/06/2014 8:22:53 PM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: goodwithagun
If you wish to discuss a previous dispute, go the previous thread and post your remarks there.
To: af_vet_1981
That is fine and understood; I completely understand someone not having confidence or faith to talk to Mary, as long as they love her, call her blessed, and emulate her faith and faithfulness, I'm content. I certainly do esteem and honor the Mary of Scripture, whose faith and faithfulness i certainly should emulate always, but is no lack of confidence or faith that is behind not praying to Mary, but that it simply is not Scriptural, regardless of Catholic attempts to extrapolate support for it.
Speaking of prayer, do you think Protestant prayers are scriptural ?
Yes and no, as some may be in Jesus name, which is not appending His name at the end of a prayer, but praying consistent with His Spirit and word.
232
posted on
04/06/2014 8:28:48 PM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: daniel1212
And do you know what the first English translation was? I suspect he might think it's the Douay-Rheims, lol.
To: Salvation
The Vulgate was Latin translated by St. Jerome. Im sure you are aware of that fact, correct? But which was not the original language, and thus your argument is invalid. Nor did Trent sanction an official version of the Vulgate, which resulted in the embarrassing Sistine Vulgate .
Correction of its many errors resulted in the first edition of the Clementine Vulgate (official version till 1979) which was presented as a Sixtine edition (with a preface in which Bellarmine charitably attributed the problem of the previous version to being that of copyist errors, rather than being the fault of Sixtus). In 1592, Pope Clement VIII published this revised edition of the Vulgate, referred to as the Sixto-Clementine Vulgate. He moved three books, 3 and 4 Esdras and the Prayer of Manasses (commonly found in medieval MSS of the Vulgate, immediately after 2Chronicles, and not found in the canon of the Council of Trent) from the Old Testament into an appendix "lest they utterly perish" (ne prorsus interirent). (http://sacredbible.org/vulgate1861/scans/817-Apocrypha.jpg) (Nor is the Douay-Challoner version a pure translation of the Vulgate.)
234
posted on
04/06/2014 8:36:34 PM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: RegulatorCountry
I suspect he might think it's the Douay-Rheims, lol. Then you have the RC bible wars. (BTW, its a she i think)
235
posted on
04/06/2014 8:38:02 PM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: daniel1212; annalex
Try the Clementina Vulgate — annalex posts the Gospel everyday on the Daily Readings thread.
236
posted on
04/06/2014 8:38:59 PM PDT
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: Salvation
Irrelevant. The Holy Spirit did not inspired the writers of Scripture to write in Latin.
237
posted on
04/06/2014 8:39:55 PM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: daniel1212
I long assumed that, but have been informed otherwise.
To: RegulatorCountry; Religion Moderator
239
posted on
04/06/2014 8:41:24 PM PDT
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: Salvation
St. Jerome and the Vulgate (completing the FIRST Bible in the year 404) [Catholic Caucus] Which did not include the Apocrypha at first, while it was not the first copy of the OT or NT.
240
posted on
04/06/2014 8:43:54 PM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 201-220, 221-240, 241-260 ... 1,441-1,459 next last
Disclaimer:
Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual
posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its
management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the
exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson