Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol

reformation21 ^ | April 2012 | Carl Trueman

[daniel1212]

Can you show me any part of this that is unbiblical or incorrect ?

BTW, i was referring to the actual texts in red as correct (and the Magnificate by the Spirit of God is magnificent), not your Hail Mary, Full of Grace prayer.

[Jim Robinson]

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[af_vet_1981]

Do you agree with salvation that Catholics do not pray to Mary (seeing as that was what my post was about)? On the other hand, can you show me even one example of anyone praying/making supplication in Heaven to Mary or anyone else, much less to a crowned, enthroned Queen of Heaven?

1. Catholics ask Mary and the saints to pray to God for them because Catholics really believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are real, and that Mary and the saints are real, and in a spiritual communion and unity through the Holy Spirit in one holy, catholic, and apostolic church, which is the body of Christ. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
2. Not sure what you mean; the only text in heaven that comes to mind, and without any prayer but full of majesty, is And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
   
   
   And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

[af_vet_1981]

BTW, i was referring to the actual texts in red as correct (and the Magnificate by the Spirit of God is magnificent), not your Hail Mary, Full of Grace prayer.

That is fine and understood; I completely understand someone not having confidence or faith to talk to Mary, as long as they love her, call her blessed, and emulate her faith and faithfulness, I'm content.

Speaking of prayer, do you think Protestant prayers are scriptural ?

[daniel1212]

In the original English translation from the original Latin it says exactly what you say it doesn't.

First you say Catholics do not pray to Mary, and now you make a misleading statement, as if the NT was originally written in Latin (original Latin) or as if that determines what it said in the original Greek, which it does not.

Lk. 1:28 and Eph. 1:6 both have believers "graced."

And do you know what the first English translation was?

[Salvation]

The Vulgate was Latin translated by St. Jerome. I’m sure you are aware of that fact, correct?

[Alex Murphy]

Speaking of prayer, do you think Protestant prayers are scriptural ?

Which Protestant prayers? All Protestants? All of their prayers?

[Salvation]

A comparison for you.

http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/Vulgate/

[Salvation]

St. Jerome and the Vulgate (completing the FIRST Bible in the year 404) [Catholic Caucus]

[daniel1212]

Catholics ask Mary and the saints to pray to God for them

Do not play semantically games. >Catholics pray to Mary and the saints. Anyone imploring someone in Heaven by favors would be called praying.

because Catholics really believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are real, and that Mary and the saints are real, and in a spiritual communion and unity through the Holy Spirit ..

And so forth and so one, but which is rationalization that ignore the utter absence of even one example of anyone praying/making supplication in Heaven to Mary or anyone else, much less to a crowned, enthroned Queen of Heaven.

the only text in heaven that comes to mind, and without any prayer but full of majesty, is And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

And which means you come up empty. Meanwhile, is this the official interpretation of your church, so that the notes (in part) in your NAB Bible cannot be correct?

The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from ⇒ Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (⇒ Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (⇒ Rev 12:6, ⇒ 13-17); cf ⇒ Isaiah 50:1; ⇒ 66:7; ⇒ Jeremiah 50:12.; http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P12V.HTM#$54O

[Religion Moderator]

If you wish to discuss a previous dispute, go the previous thread and post your remarks there.

[daniel1212]

That is fine and understood; I completely understand someone not having confidence or faith to talk to Mary, as long as they love her, call her blessed, and emulate her faith and faithfulness, I'm content.

I certainly do esteem and honor the Mary of Scripture, whose faith and faithfulness i certainly should emulate always, but is no lack of confidence or faith that is behind not praying to Mary, but that it simply is not Scriptural, regardless of Catholic attempts to extrapolate support for it.

Speaking of prayer, do you think Protestant prayers are scriptural ?

Yes and no, as some may be in Jesus name, which is not appending His name at the end of a prayer, but praying consistent with His Spirit and word.

[RegulatorCountry]

And do you know what the first English translation was?

I suspect he might think it's the Douay-Rheims, lol.

[daniel1212]

The Vulgate was Latin translated by St. Jerome. I’m sure you are aware of that fact, correct?

But which was not the original language, and thus your argument is invalid. Nor did Trent sanction an official version of the Vulgate, which resulted in the embarrassing Sistine Vulgate .

Correction of its many errors resulted in the first edition of the Clementine Vulgate (official version till 1979) which was presented as a Sixtine edition (with a preface in which Bellarmine charitably attributed the problem of the previous version to being that of copyist errors, rather than being the fault of Sixtus). In 1592, Pope Clement VIII published this revised edition of the Vulgate, referred to as the Sixto-Clementine Vulgate. He moved three books, 3 and 4 Esdras and the Prayer of Manasses (commonly found in medieval MSS of the Vulgate, immediately after 2Chronicles, and not found in the canon of the Council of Trent) from the Old Testament into an appendix "lest they utterly perish" (ne prorsus interirent). — (http://sacredbible.org/vulgate1861/scans/817-Apocrypha.jpg) (Nor is the Douay-Challoner version a pure translation of the Vulgate.)

[daniel1212]

I suspect he might think it's the Douay-Rheims, lol.

Then you have the RC bible wars. (BTW, its a she i think)

[Salvation]

Try the Clementina Vulgate — annalex posts the Gospel everyday on the Daily Readings thread.

[daniel1212]

Irrelevant. The Holy Spirit did not inspired the writers of Scripture to write in Latin.

[RegulatorCountry]

I long assumed that, but have been informed otherwise.

[Salvation]

He??

If you are going to talk about me, please ping me.

http://www.freerepublic.com/~salvation/

[daniel1212]

St. Jerome and the Vulgate (completing the FIRST Bible in the year 404) [Catholic Caucus]

Which did not include the Apocrypha at first, while it was not the first copy of the OT or NT.