Posted on 03/22/2014 1:35:03 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
Was "Babylon The Great" a Symbolic Name for Jerusalem?
Recall that Jesus said:
"… it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33.)
That is a very important statement to keep in mind when considering the following passages: and later in the same chapter of Luke, Jesus added:
"…I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:47-51 KJV)
That is pretty clear. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, and at least some of the apostles. There is more in Matthew:
"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in yoursynagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Mat 23:34-36 KJV)
So, Jerusalem was not only responsible for the blood of all the prophets (and some apostles;) but for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth. And vengeance for that blood was required of the generation that Jesus was speaking to.
We all know that is exactly what happened within that generation: the Roman armies completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, fulfilling this prophecy by Jesus:
"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Mat 24:1-2 KJV)
But how do those verses compare to those on Babylon the Great found in the Revelation?
In the Revelation, Babylon the Great is also called the great whore, the mother of harlots, the great city, and the woman. In the context of blood responsibility, John mentions this:
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:6, KJV)
The first martyr of Jesus was Stephen, if I recall correctly; and there were many more. The next chapter reveals additional facts:
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24, KJV)
But, according to Jesus, Jerusalem is supposed to be responsible for the blood of all the prophets; and Jerusalem is responsible for all the righteous blood? Yet, in the following verse we see that God avenged the blood of the apostles and prophets on Babylon the Great.
“Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.” (Rev 18:20, KJV)
And recall the first scripture at the top:
"… it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33.)
So what do we know:
1. Jerusalem killed many of the apostles, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great
2. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great.
3. Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the righteous, yet Babylon the Great was responsible for "all that were slain on the earth."
There are many other references in the Revelation that tie Babylon the Great to old Jerusalem. This is one of many:
"And their dead bodies [the two witnesses] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:8 KJV)
It seem our Lord Jesus Christ was killed in both Babylon the Great and Jerusalem. It is difficult to imagine Babylon the Great being any other city than Jerusalem.
Philip
Get real!
Rev 17
1
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
How could it be said that Jerusalem sit up on many waters?
They have a big problem staying in control of their own land.
2
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
In times past the Church shared power with many kings and in some cases even controlled them.
3
So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Golden cup? wine? communion?
5
And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Does it read that the blood of the saints was on her hands? no, it says she was drunken with the blood of the saints.
Could it be she was falsely representing the saints and therefore drunken (figuratively speaking) on the blood that they shed?
Was she drinking from the golden communion cup unworthily?.
While it is true that Rome itself sits on and around the seven hills and was surrounded by a wall the Vatican is in Rome.
The mother Church and her daughters are the only ones that fit the bill, we can see a lot just by reading a little history.
rev 18
4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Who is God talking to here? he says my people, are we who are reading his word and wondering about it his people? i think so.
Why would he be telling his people to come out of Israel, or parts of the Muslim world? why would he feel the need to?
He is telling us to come out of something we love and even worship.
I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
The Church and her daughters are all over the world, many waters which represent multitudes of people.
I think it was said that the other branches “could” be grafted back in. IIRC, it was said as a warning to Gentile Christians, that if God would lop off the Jewish branches for corruption, they would certainly not be spared the same fate if they too failed to be obedient. But your basic point is right, that now God views everyone the same, whether Jew or Greek, slave or freeman, etc., as Paul said.
With your system of hermeneutics I would seriously doubt you would understand the connection
The answer to your question in the title is no. The stuff you are peddling is Supercessionism.
That goes hand in hand with Preterism.
Yup. Eventually, it gets millions of Jews murdered. Sick stuff.
"How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. (Rev 18:7)
This is from the Revelation, identifying the great city as Jerusalem (where our Lord was crucified):
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:8 KJV)
This identifies Babylon as the great city, and as a "she""
"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." (Rev 14:8 KJV)
This identifies the great whore as Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots; and as a woman:
"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication…. And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:1-2, 5-6 KJV)
This identifies the woman as the great city:
"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." (Rev 17:18 KJV)
This identifies Babylon, the great city, as a "queen" in her heart. Keep in mind that God called her a whore:
"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come." (Rev 18:2-10 KJV)
So, the "queen" is the great city, Babylon, Mother of Harlots, which was Jerusalem until 70 AD when she was made desolate. She became a widow alright. This is from Lamentations talking about Jerusalem:
"How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!" (Lam 1:1 KJV)
Philip
>>>The answer to your question in the title is no. The stuff you are peddling is Supercessionism.<<<
Thanks for the contribution. When you get some time off from your name-calling supersession, how about contributing a supporting scripture, or two.
Philip
>>>Babylon was the center for paganism and pagan practices. That Catholic Church has incorporated many of the pagan Babylonian practices into their religion. It was the pagans who killed the prophets.<<<
Jesus said it was Jerusalem (implying the Jewish leadership.) Do I believe you, or Jesus?
>>>With your system of hermeneutics I would seriously doubt you would understand the connection.<<<
If I had your system, I seriously doubt I would care.
Philip
No He didn’t but I’m not going to discuss it with you. I’ve seen your hermeneutics and it’s so far off there’s little sense in wasting my time with you.
What does "many waters" mean? Where can I find that in the scriptures?
>>>In times past the Church shared power with many kings and in some cases even controlled them.<<<
I am unsure how the catholic church is relevant, unless it killed all the prophets.
>>>Golden cup? wine? communion?<<<
I believe the cup is in reference to a prophecy by Jeremiah where God sent the armies of ancient Babylon against ancient Jerusalem and the cities of Judah (Jer 25.) The cup was in remembrance of the first desolation of Jerusalem, I presume:
"And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath." (Rev 14:8)
>>>Does it read that the blood of the saints was on her hands? no, it says she was drunken with the blood of the saints. Could it be she was falsely representing the saints and therefore drunken (figuratively speaking) on the blood that they shed?<<<
It says that Babylon the Great was responsible for the blood of the saints, and the prophets; like Jerusalem.
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24, KJV)
>>>While it is true that Rome itself sits on and around the seven hills and was surrounded by a wall the Vatican is in Rome. The mother Church and her daughters are the only ones that fit the bill, we can see a lot just by reading a little history.<<<
All this is meaningless unless the Papacy is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, which it is not, nor ever shall be. We have been fresh out of prophets since the first century. Besides the great city, Babylon the Great sat on a scarlet colored beast; and on seven mountains, not hills. Ancient Jerusalem sat on seven mountains.
>>>Who is God talking to here? he says my people, are we who are reading his word and wondering about it his people? i think so.<<<
He was talking to the early Christians to get out of Jerusalem. It appeared to be a follow-through of his warnings in the Olivet Discourse of Matt 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13, where he warned Christians to get out of Judea when they saw certain signs.
>>>Why would he be telling his people to come out of Israel, or parts of the Muslim world? why would he feel the need to?<<<
There were no Muslims in the first century.
>>>He is telling us to come out of something we love and even worship.<<<
In the first century Christians were being persecuted and murdered by the Jews of Jerusalem, and elsewhere. That is part of the reason it was destroyed. It had some other ghastly deeds in its resume: the blood of all the prophets; all the righteous blood since Abel; the murder of Christ; etc..
>>>The Church and her daughters are all over the world, many waters which represent multitudes of people.<<<
You have absolutely no proof of that. If you did, I would not have started this thread.
Philip
I don't think so. He identified every city or area by name. This is Strongs for the word "strangers" in 1 Peter 1:1
(3927) par-ep-id’-ay-mos; from (3844) (para>) and the base of (1927) (ejpidhme>w); an alien alongside, i.e. a resident foreigner: — pilgrim, stranger.
That same Greek word is used in Hebrews 11:13. A word study of 3927 brought up this:
1) one who comes from a foreign country into a city or land to reside there by the side of the natives
2) a stranger
3) sojourning in a strange place, a foreigner
4) in the NT metaph. in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth
Philip
Did the church replace Israel? It’s already been established that you are Preterist in your beliefs.
>>>You have some big surprises coming. Jerusalem, the one that is on the map today, is the same one that you think, I was destroyed. Maybe not special to you, but it is special to the only One that matters. Ps 122:6-9<<<
That prayer was for old Jerusalem, which Christ sent his armies to destroy in 70 AD. The new covenant fulfilled the promise to David: that the fruit of his loin (Christ) would sit on his throne forever. Acts 2:22-36
Philip
>>>Did the church replace Israel? It’s already been established that you are Preterist in your beliefs.<<<
I didn’t know that is what preterist’s believe, Cynical Bear. That means, before the corruption of the church by dispensationalism, there were a lot of preterists.
Of course, that is all sour grapes by you, Cynical Bear. You and I both know the definition of preterist is the belief that all prophecy (old and new testament) was fulfilled in 70 AD. I don’t believe that, so I am no preterist.
BTW, I thought you were through with me (for the umpteenth time?) Admit it, Cynical Bear. You are not interested in an honest debate, because your ideology is all made up, and you cannot defend it. It is a new-age invention.
Philip
You are rejecting all scholarship on this.
They were HEBREW believers to whom he was writing.
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