Posted on 03/07/2014 10:14:06 AM PST by matthewrobertolson
Only trusting the Bible without the Church would be like loving "Romeo & Juliet" and hating Shakespeare's explanation of it.
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That person sent the same to me by way of freepmail.
It is sickening, but oh, so carefully polite. Still, it does not equal some form of actual heresy, other than reliant upon Cyril's "therefore" reasoning.
As you pointed out previously -- examine the fruit. What has that allowed to come to the world, but a form of ancestor worship/ goddess worship?
Roman Catholics will deny that such occurs, even as some confess that looking at their own fellows, it is difficult to tell that is not what is occurring in regards to "Mary".
So much for privacy genius.
It really doesn’t matter to me whether it was sent PM or posted. The same thing was said all the same.
It doesn’t affect ME any different depending on the way it was sent.
Nevertheless, the questions still remain. The Holy Spirit inspired Scripture says *mother of Jesus*, not *mother of God*.
Now if GOD thought that calling Mary *mother of Jesus* would cause wrong thinking about the nature of Christ, then why didn’t HE call Mary *mother of God*?
And what kind of chutzpah does it take to correct the Holy Spirit? Doesn’t the Catholic church teach that Scripture was inspired by God?
How then could they even consider changing it?
And then Catholics want us to trust the Catholic church to be able to correctly interpret Scripture? When they’ve shown that they have no compunction about changing it?
If they can’t be trusted to not mess with it, then they can’t be trusted to correctly interpret it.
Either that, or they simply do not believe that it’s truly the infallible, God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired Word of God. In which case, their *interpretation* of it is meaningless.
Actually, there are three Heresies that all have bearing on you failure to call Mary, the Mother of God.
There is SIXTEEN centuries of the Church calling Mary the Mother of God - you've got the bible and that's all.
You too should look up VINCIBLE IGNORANCE, because if you fail to spend the time and read the earliest of Church Fathers in the 1st and 2nd centuries after Christs death, then you can be Judged just because you had the opportunity to correct your errors through study and didn't.
The THREE Heresies of 'Mary, the Mother of God'
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/fr90203.htm
The first and most fundamental teaching about Mary is based on her relationship with Jesus, that of being his mother. It is on this reality that her special dignity is founded, and from it flow all her prerogatives. Now Mary is not the Mother of God as such; she was rather the mother of God the Son incarnate. United in the one person of Jesus Christ are two natures, divine and human. Mary, being the mother of the one person of Christ, is in this sense the mother of God.
During the first few centuries of the growth of the Church, there arose THREE Christological heresies which bear on the issue of the divine maternity. Docetism (110 A.D.), while acknowledging the divinity of Christ, rejected the reality of his human nature. Arianism (320 A.D.), on the other hand, accepted Jesus' humanity but denied that he was the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity. Both of these heresies repudiated the dual nature of Christ and the mystery of the Incarnation. If Docetism was correct, Mary could not be called the Mother of God, since she would not be the mother of God the Son incarnate. If Arianism were true, Jesus was not divine, and Mary could not be considered the mother of God. At the First Council of Nicaea (325 A.D.), the first ecumenical council convened by the Church, both of these positions were condemned, and the reality of Jesus as true God and true man infallibly defined. The consequent document is known as the Nicene Creed.
After Nicaea a third Christological heresy arose, called Nestorianism (428 A.D.), which proposed two persons in Christ, rather than two natures in one person. Mary would then be the mother of the human person of Christ only, and therefore not the mother of God. Nestorianism was condemned by the third ecumenical council, held in Ephesus (431 A.D.). In substance, the council infallibly declared that Jesus was "according to his divinity, born of the Father before all ages, and in these last days, according to his humanity, born of the Virgin Mary for us and for our salvation . . . A union was made of the two natures . . . In accord with this understanding of the unconfused union we confess that the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (, God-Bearer), through God the Word's being incarnate and becoming man, and, from this conception, His joining to Himself the temple assumed from her." The foregoing statement is taken from a letter of St. Cyril, bishop of Alexandria (444 A.D.), who presided over the Council of Ephesus. It is known as the "Creed of Union" or the "Creed of Ephesus."
Prior to Ephesus, however, the Church Fathers wrote of Mary's relationship to Jesus, the Word Incarnate. St. Irenaeus (202 A.D.), bishop of Lyons and pupil of Polycarp, St. John's disciple, declared, "The Virgin Mary . . . being obedient to His Word, received from the angel the glad tidings that she would bear God." St. Ephraem of Syria (373 A.D.) noted, "The handmaid work of His Wisdom became the Mother of God." St. Alexander (328 A.D.), bishop of Alexandria and a key figure at the Council of Nicaea, wrote that "Jesus Christ . . . bore a body not in appearance but in truth, derived from the Mother of God." St. Athanasius (373 A.D.), secretary and successor to Alexander, reflected upon "the Word begotten of the Father on high" who "inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly and eternally, is he that is born in time here below, of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God."
For The Greater Glory of God
Can you point me to apostolic teachings which address the blessed Mary? Specifically an intercessory doctrine the apostles taught?
Thanks.
The Romeo and Juliet analogy is invalid. Shakespeare did not have to explain his own work. To use this analogy one would conclude the Roman Catholic church inspired the scriptures and not the Holy Spirit.
So for your analogy to work, you would need to find the foremost expert on Shakespeare and not Shakespeare himself.
So yes one can love Romeo and Juliet, love Shakespeare but closely examine the “experts” on his works.
Excellent post. Wow!
Reference to the Virgin Mary as being blessed in found in the Holy Bible. The first instance is in Luke 1:28 when the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary to announce to her that she would be the mother of the Lord Jesus.
“And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” [Lk. 1:28]
The next instance is when Elizabeth was with the Holy Spirit, she stated that Mary was blessed.
“And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.” [Lk. 1:42]
Then there is when Mary sang the Magnificat that is found in Luke 1:46-55.
“Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.” [Lk. 1:48] (except for the present Protestant generation!)
Finally, there is another reference during the ministry of Jesus when a woman raised her voice in the crowd and said, “Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!”
“And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck.” [Lk. 11:27]
So, what exactly does it mean that Mary is blessed?
In Luke 1:48, the Virgin Mary said, “Henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.” This reference of being called blessed throughout every generations can imply two different meanings.
First of all, it can mean that when every generation considers the fact that the Virgin Mary was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus, the Temple of the Most Holy of holies, overcome with the awe of this wonder, they will be left speechless, only being able to say, “Truly, she was blessed.”
Secondly, the reference to every generation calling Mary “blessed” can surpass the blessing that relates to the incarnation of God and the motherhood of Jesus. It can literally mean, over and above the aforementioned, as history has shown through her endless worldwide apparitions and miraculous cures through her intercession, that the Virgin Mary shall be blessed throughout every generation. While the mystery of the Incarnation is without doubt the greatest of all the blessings of the Virgin Mary, all other blessings that have been received to this date serve to affirm that truly, all generations shall call the Virgin Mary “blessed.”
So the Holy Spirit missed the mark in calling Mary *the mother of Jesus*?
And the Catholic church felt the need to correct Him?
If saying *mother of Jesus* is heretical, then the Holy Spirit inspired heresy. And the Catholic church saw fit to elevate itself above God and correct Him.
And this is found in Scripture exactly where?
What is your source for the copy and paste you posted here?
Or are you passing this off as your own?
(Which I found in multiple sources by a quick google search)
The word grace used in this passage in Luke is used in one other place in the Bible and that is Ephesians 1 where Paul is us that with this same grace, God has blessed us (believers) in the Beloved. IOW, we all have access to that grace and it has been bestowed on us all.
http://biblehub.com/greek/5487.htm
Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”
Ephesians 1:4-6 In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Greek word “grace”
charitoó: to make graceful, endow with grace
Original Word: χαριτόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: charitoó
Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)
Short Definition: I favor, bestow freely on
Definition: I favor, bestow freely on.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5487 xaritóō (from 5486 /xárisma, "grace," see there) – properly, highly-favored because receptive to God's grace. 5487 (xaritóō) is used twice in the NT (Lk 1:28 and Eph 1:6), both times of God extending Himself to freely bestow grace (favor).
Word Origin: from charis
Definition: to make graceful, endow with grace
NASB Translation: favored (1), freely bestowed (1).
If you found this from multiple sources why do you want my source?
I have quoted and attributed this before.
You don’t accept it - so exactly why should I care?
AMDG
RF guidelines.
Asked and Answered:
“I have quoted and attributed this before.”
finis
Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray:
"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21).
And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray,
"Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that
"the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8).
Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. Angels do the same thing:
"[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).
Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father:
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for
"[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).
As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.
more from the Early church Fathers continued here:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints
AMDG
Verses relating that angels do God’s will does not relate in the least to praying to angels, or deceased Christians, or anyone but God.
Those verses do not support that doctrine.
The saved, born again believers who are still living here on earth are righteous. We are clothed in the righteousness of Christ.
God sees us as righteous as His Son in whom we have life. Our life is hidden with Christ in God.
I understand the references to blessed. That is why I addressed the post using blessed with Mary. Indeed giving birth to Jesus Christ no doubt she was blessed.
My actual question was where do you see apostolic teachings of Mary as an intercessory?
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