But are they not equal in their sacredness?
No, they are not equally sacred.
Posted on 02/15/2014 11:08:30 AM PST by ebb tide
Yesterday (Friday, Feb. 14), Pope Francis held an audience with the Bishops of the Czech Republic who came to Rome for their ad limina visit. In the visit, as it usually happens in such cases, other than the formal address, the Pope heard the questions and comments of the bishops. Archbishop Jan Graubner, of Olomouc, told the Czech section of Vatican Radio what the Pope told him: [Abp. Jan Graubner speaks:] When we were discussing those who are fond of the ancient liturgy and wish to return to it, it was evident that the Pope speaks with great affection, attention, and sensitivity for all in order not to hurt anyone. However, he made a quite strong statement when he said that he understands when the old generation returns to what it experienced, but that he cannot understand the younger generation wishing to return to it. "When I search more thoroughly - the Pope said - I find that it is rather a kind of fashion [in Czech: 'móda', Italian 'moda']. And if it is a fashion, therefore it is a matter that does not need that much attention. It is just necessary to show some patience and kindness to people who are addicted to a certain fashion. But I consider greatly important to go deep into things, because if we do not go deep, no liturgical form, this or that one, can save us."
[Tip and translation: reader MC, from the Czech Republic.] _____________________________
Roman weather: always hard to predict
Traditionalists are extremely stable and strongly fashion-averse. But as for the winds in Rome!... Roma è mobile, qual piuma al vento! Under seven years ago, the opinion of the then-reigning and still living Holy Father (one who was much more acquainted with the issue at hand) was quite different:
Immediately after the Second Vatican Council it was presumed that requests for the use of the 1962 Missal would be limited to the older generation which had grown up with it, but in the meantime it has clearly been demonstrated that young persons too have discovered this liturgical form, felt its attraction and found in it a form of encounter with the Mystery of the Most Holy Eucharist ... . ... What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place. (Benedict XVI, July 7, 2007 Letter to Bishops)
I think he was being facetious. You know, because so many Catholics will come in here and defend this crap.
I'm sure hiring must be motivated by compassion, since the translation skills are so weak.
[You do know I'm kidding about this? FRomans have been telling me that it was a translation issue or that the "mainstream media" hates the big guy ...]
Most “catholics” here are just high church protestants who want to feel better about their sins by putting down the Pope. (also seeing as this is the internet, I wouldn’t be surprised if most of them are trolling or trying to get a reaction from people)
The translators are horrible, but what he said was that the old mass was a “fad” with young people and people in general.
Well, you could say many things that young people take up (in the Church are “fads” (such as the charismatics, various lay movements, etc.), but I don’t see why the Pope has to criticize and belittle this one. If it’s a “fad” among young people, it’s important to them, and he should address it with more respect.
Unless he’s afraid of it, which he clearly is. I love this Pope in many ways, but he’s a very ‘80s kind of guy in a lot of other ways, and one thing they had in spades was a horror of anything pre-Vatican II.
It's so over the top from a spiritual perspective that it brings to mind John 15:18 - If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you.
The persecution of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculata is another indication that Tradition is under heavy spiritual assault. Their devotion to the Blessed Mother combined with their "drift" toward Tradition made them a prime target of the devil.
On the other hand, I recently heard a traditionalist bishop say that the pope told him that the Tridentine Mass is one of the treasures of the Church. And hasn't he dedicated his papacy to Our Lady of Fatima? Perhaps he'll end up being the pope who finally consecrates Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
:)
I believe in miracles. And that would be a miracle.
This post is to apologize for post #2. I shouldn’t have used that kind of language. I reacted.
Indeed.
I thought this after his first dozen acts of ostentatious humility.
If anybody is putting down anybody, it's the Pope putting down traditional Catholics:
The Pope Francis Little Book of Insults
"Old maid!" "Specialist of the Logos!" "Rosary counter!" "Functionary!" "Self-absorbed, Promethean neo-Pelagian!" "Restorationist!" "Pelagian!" "Mr and Mrs Whiner!" "Triumphalist!" "Liquid Christian!" "Museum mummy!" "Renaissance prince!" "Airport Bishop!" "Ideologue of the Logos!" "Leprous courtier!" "Idealogue!" "Long-faced, mournful funeral Christian!" "Gnostic!" "Careerist Bishop!" "Sourpuss!" "Pretender!" "Liturgical obsessive!" "Sayer of prayers!" "Authoritarian!" "Elitist!" "Querulous and disillusioned pessimist!" "Sad Christian!" "Pickled pepper-faced Christian!" "Children! Afraid to dance! To cry! Afraid of everything!" "Asker for certainty in all things!" "Closed, sad, trapped Christian who is not a free Christian!" "Pagan Christian!" "Little monster!" "Defeated Christian!" "Creed-reciting, parrot Christian!" "Watered-down faith, weak-hoped Christian!" "Inquisitorial beater!" "Seminarians who grit their teeth and wait to finish, follow rules and smile [who] reveal the hypocrisy of clericalism - one of the worst evils!" "Abstract ideologue!" "Fundamentalist!" "Smarmy, idolator priest!" "Worshiper of the god Narcissus!" "Vain, butterfly-priest!" "Priest-wheeler dealer!" "Priest-tycoon!" "Religious who have a heart as sour as vinegar!" "Promoter of the poison of immanence!" “Those closed in the formality of a prayer that is cold, stingy [who] might end up as Michal, in the sterility of her formality.”
The is a portrait of Pope Francis in the vestibulum of our chapel where a diocese Tridentine Mass is celebrated.
I always feel like turning the portrait upside down or sideways or something during the Mass.
To defend the Pope:
What is the actual difference in the two masses, the TLM and the Novus Ordo? Isn’t Jesus as present in one as the other?
I understand that some prefer one over the other, and some priests are poor officiants. But are they not equal in their sacredness? And from the point of view of the presence of the Lord or the sacredness of the rite, the differences would be superficial.
But are they not equal in their sacredness?
No, they are not equally sacred.
ALPAPilot:
Ebb tide photo collage there is extremely descriptive.
Both the Tridentine (now officially called The Extraordinary Form) and Novus Ordo are valid masses, as you point out.
One of the key differences is the reverence shown to God during the whole of the Mass; and specifically to Christ in the Form of the Eucharist.
That second photo is a very common scene at large parishes just before Holy Communion, where a dozen or more Eucharistic Ministers, some better dressed than others (ahem...) are crowded around the Altar in a fashion that looks like chaos if you walked in right at that moment.
The loss of respect and decorum to Christ present makes more traditional Catholics, or even just more conservative and reserved individuals *cringe*.
To have the leader of your Church criticize you when you can plainly see and feel that something is wrong and inappropriate, is disheartening to say the least.
The fact that you criticize the dress of the Eucharistic ministers (not undeservedly) and use the word fashion in your description would seem to make the Pope’s point.
I’m not certain the Pope was trying to denigrate the TLM, and to assume he had from a third person account, in a very short translated account, from a hostile incompetent press is somewhat unfair.
Pope Benedict also had some criticism of the TLM in his book The Spirit of the Liturgy, but he was trying to get to the essentials of the matter.
I'm not sure I understand. Reagan was describing the Novus Ordo, not the TLM. Francis was describing the TLM.
it has nothing to do with the personal sacredness of the priest. A priest can be the biggest whore master in the world —and in up a storm—that does not prevent the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. When they changed the rite from Tridentine to Novus Ordo they changed the emphasis from “a sacrifice” —or as my I guess there was a sort of thinking at the time —especially in North America, English speaking countries, and perhaps countries like Germany & Holland where u have a mixed Protestant/Catholic population—that if we make the mass less mysterious—less hocus pocus—they won’t think of us as so strange. The changes that did occur weren’t actually the original mind of the Vatican. The genie was out of the bottle. The mid to late sixties experienced crazy folk masses with nuns with guitars and a lot of bad music etc (although I have to say I did enjoy it as a kid of 10-11 years old). The priest became a personality and later on an amorphous kind of therapeutic feeling intruded itself on the mass. In the days of the old mass, I am sure there were good preachers ad awful preachers -maybe that was the only place where a priest’s personality came into play. This is the best way I can explain it.
Actually, they were. And they were many. We're not talking about simple abuses. We're talking about designing a completely different "mass".
So do you consider Vatican Radio to be “a hostile, incompetent press”? If so, shouldn’t the Pope shut it down?
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