Posted on 01/17/2014 10:17:41 AM PST by dangus
Heh. I was playing off a line from one of the old Obsession ads, though.
Please show from John 2 where it says Jesus was angry.
B: He is sinless. Yes! IF He were angry with them, rather than their ACTIONS, then He would not be sinless!
IF he were angry with the money changers (merchants selling animals for the offering), He would not have stopped at just upsetting their money and driving them and their animals out of the Temple. (Mark 11:15–19, 11:27–33; Matthew 21:12–17, 21:23–27; Luke 19:45–48, 20:1–8; John 2:13–16) What did He do to Judas, KNOWING that Judas was betraying Him? He sent him on his way to complete the betrayal. What did He pray concerning His executioners? In Luke 23:34 we read: 'Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”' Having been beaten and humiliated, if there were a time to be angry at a person or persons, THEN would have been the time! Instead, He asked the Father to FORGIVE them!
What did God the Father do in anger/wrath for the execution of His Son? He caused an earthquake, darkened the sky for several hours and tore the 'veil' (an approximately 4 inch thick piece of 'cloth' 60 feet in hieght) from top to bottom. Dead Pharisees? Dead Pilate? Dead Roman soldiers? No! Even killing His Son, He revealed mercy! In John 10:30, Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." In verse 38, He says of His miracles, "But if I do them (miracles), even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." Father and Son (and Holyt Spirit), each omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent; therefore, NONE are angry with those created in their image, merely the actions/deeds/words of their creation!
THIS is where some Christians get the idea of, 'Hate the sin, not the sinner!' Is it difficult? OF COURSE! Ephesians 6:12 states, 'For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.' Our anger should be against the SINS directed/influenced by the 'adversary' and his minions, NOT against people.
One does not take a whip to, and overturn the tables of, merchants unless one is angry.
OH really? So you couldn’t find that Jesus was actually angry so you had to project what you would feel onto what Jesus “must have been feeling” in order to justify your position. Got it.<
For your information, I could easily eject working prostitutes from a house of worship without being angry.
Do you believe in Hell?
Is God going to send some people to Hell?
Does God know who they are?
Did he not know who they were before he formed them in the womb?
Did he create them anyway?
Looks like you beat me to it.
Touche’!
LOL!
Nah, I’m Catholic, if you havent figured that out by now. I just know funny when I see it. ;-)
That's kinda like blaming the gun for a murder.
Let's throw the gun in jail.
That's kinda like blaming the gun for a murder. Let's throw the gun in jail.
Hardly! If you believe that Jesus was angry with the men, rather than their actions, then it sounds like you are suggesting that Jesus was a hypocrite, or at the least, inconsistent!
In Luke 10:25-37, Jesus is asked by an expert in law, "“Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus answered, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” The 'expert' answered, "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’". Jesus answered affirmatively, then the man asked, “And who is my neighbour?”. Jesus then gave the parable of the Samaritan, a man who would normally hate Jews, yet he helped the injured Jew.
After telling the parable, he asked the 'expert', "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The 'expert' replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise."
If you are suggesting that Jesus was angry with the moneychangers rather than their actions, yet He told people to love their neighbours as themselves, you are suggesting an inconsistency in Jesus' instruction versus His living example. I find no inconsistency in anything else that He said or did therefore, I do not accept such an inconsistency in this case!
Jesus is God. God destroyed almost all of humanity in the flood because the people had become wicked. He will judge men and throw them into everlasting punishment. God’s anger is a righteous anger. But it is anger nonetheless.
Jesus came to save us from God’s wrath and those, like the temple defilers, who reject Christ will face his eternal wrath. He is not going to send men’s actions to Hell. He is going to send men to Hell.
If you don’t like that fact, take it up with God.
Don’t try to preach a milquetoast gospel. Read “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” and learn to fear Him. The FEAR of God is the beginning of wisdom.
Incidentally, the 'FEAR' of the Lord refers to respect, admiration, awe of His power and might, love, because He loved us first, and yes, some small fear for those who are not saved. We are to 'fear' Him as a small child fears a beloved parent, a fear of offending, but knowing we are loved. 'Fear' of the Lord, as in fear of punishment? THAT, most certainly, is NOT what the Bible is about!
God is a God OF justice, but firstly He IS love! If you are spending your life fearing His punishment, you are most certainly missing His love. That is existing, rather than living.
Yes, you could. It would be the method you chose to do it that would indicate your anger level. I think if you whipped them like cattle, it would indicate anger.
Injecting emotion like that into what scripture says pretty much eliminates any theologically sound discussion so there’s not much need to continue this conversation.
Does Gid send men to Hell or does he just send their sins to Hell?
Does God punish the sins or the sinners?
Or do you not believe in Hell?
Is God going to send some people to Hell?
Yes, those who refuse to do what He asks us to do.
Does God know who they are?
Yes
Did he not know who they were before he formed them in the womb?
Yes
Did he create them anyway?
Yes. But he did not predestine them to hell. He did not create them to be eternally dammed. Yes, He knows what we are going to do. But we have a choice. We can choose God or choose sin.
yes. but he did not create people to be dammed. He gave us the free will to choose God or choose sin. ALL have the opportunity to choose God. Sinners reject God.
The only problem I see in your logic is that you fail to understand that God does not predestine people to hell. He predestines those who will go to heaven. Everyone else goes to Hell.
But thank you for answering those questions. A lot of people would have avoided them.
Too many people see Free Will as a blessing. But in reality, it is a curse because no man, of his own Free Will would ever choose the path to salvation. Men are naturally in rebellion to God. It takes a divine act of God to change our wills before we can be saved. Salvation is not the result of your choices. It is entirely the result of God's choices.
Blessings.
Marlowe
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