Posted on 01/09/2014 9:09:07 AM PST by SeekAndFind
"I could never believe in a God who sends people to hell." This common objection, while sincere, is nevertheless untrue and illogical. How can you say it is "untrue" Dan if someone really means it? This is how. Just walk through the reasoning with me if you will.
First of all, think about what the person is saying. He is saying that if the biblical teaching about heaven and hell is correct, then he would never believe in a God who allows people to spend eternity in a place of suffering. This rationale is both illogical and irrational. His objection is based on a premise that the biblical teaching about hell is correct, which is a premise he already rejects.
It's like saying, "I could never believe in a God who sends people to a place which I am convinced doesn't exist." Huh? How do you know you could never believe such a thing when you do not yet even believe in hell, yet alone believe in Christ?
An unbeliever is someone who does not believe in Jesus as Savior. And I have yet to meet an unbeliever who is convinced that hell as described in the Bible is real. So an unbeliever's lack of faith has to do with a lack of faith in Jesus, rather than a lack of faith in hell. He is first an unbeliever in Jesus, and only later an unbeliever in hell.
We can all agree that the following statement is true: "The biblical description regarding hell and those who go there is either true or false." So the objection is that the person would never believe in God if the biblical description is true. I disagree, and I think you will too in a couple minutes. Here is why.
The biblical teaching, as well as the personal experience of Christians, is that a believer is given a new heart and begins to love God because of what Christ has done to save his soul. Millions of Christians believe in God while also believing the difficult doctrine that God sends people to hell. It is not only possible to hold these two positions, but many Christians accept both of them simultaneously.
So it is possible. It does happen. I, for one, believe in Christ as my Savior, and also in the reality of hell as described in the Bible.
It is irrational to say, "I could never believe in a God who sends people to hell." It's like saying, "Even if millions of others claim to believe in both Christ and hell, I could never believe such a thing myself." That is untrue. You could believe it.
Let's say you were convinced that both heaven and hell are real places where people spend eternity. If you were convinced of that fact, it would be absurd for you to say, "I would rather go to hell than believe in God." No you wouldn't. You don't really mean it. Five minutes in hell would convince you otherwise. If you truly believed you were going to spend eternity in the same place of misery and agony where you spent the previous five minutes, you wouldn't stick to your unbelief and your rejection of Christ. You would know at that point that hell is real, and you would want any way out.
There is no way you would choose to stay in hell "just to prove a point." It wouldn't happen. You would become a believer very quickly. And you would see that you can indeed believe in a God who sends people to hell. There is no one who despises his soul so much that he would choose eternal punishment in hell over eternal pleasure with God in heaven.
And there is no one, except Satan, who hates God so much that he would spend five minutes in hell only to say, "I still don't want that new heart, and that new life, and that peace in paradise." It simply isn't logical or rational to say that a person would stick to this flawed position "just to make a point." In that situation, you would swallow your pride, bow your knee to your Creator, and accept Christ as your Savior and your only path to paradise.
If you are going to reject God's love for you as demonstrated in the death of His Son on the cross, it is because you are choosing to reject Jesus as the Messiah and Savior. But it is not because of what the Bible teaches about hell. People only think that is one reason they don't believe in God, but it isn't. It is not a logical position to claim such a thing. It is completely unreasonable. Man loves his personal comfort way too much to stick to that position "just to make a point." It wouldn't happen. If he could get it, man would definitely ask God for a lifeline after just five minutes in hell.
But of course the Bible does not offer a shred of hope that such a lifeline will be available to people after they are sent to hell. Once a person enters hell, reality quickly sinks in. People then see that their perception while on earth was terribly wrong. They see that they could indeed have previously believed in a God who sends people to hell, even though at the time they may have sincerely said they "could never believe in such a God."
Do you know why Jesus spoke at least as much about hell as He did about heaven? Because heaven and hell are actual places where people do exist forever. The biblical teaching about hell is probably the second toughest thing in Scripture to grasp. So what's the first? Here it is: God loved you enough to send His only Son to die in your place on the cross. Seriously, who does that? God did.
The Lord wants you in heaven forever and not in hell. If you repent of your sins and receive Christ as your Savior, you will be saved and safe forever, period. (see Mark 1:15, John 3:16, John 1:12, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, & 1 John 5:13)
At the same time, if you continue to reject Christ, that's on you. But either way, it is nonsensical for someone to make the illogical statement, "I could never believe in a God who sends people to hell." And I suspect you now see why that premise, albeit sincere, is false and illogical.
Everything just makes more sense when you are trusting Jesus to forgive your sins.
-- Dan Delzell is the pastor of Wellspring Lutheran Church in Papillion, Neb. He is a regular contributor to The Christian Post.
The doctrinal argument of those verses ends up being whether or not those thrown in the Lake of Fire with the Devil live forever and ever - but in never-ending torment.
My understanding is that everything not in the Book of Life is thrown into that fire, including death and hell itself. Only Satan still exists in torment forever - as Revelation 21 tells us that death and hell are swallowed up in victory and there are no more tears or suffering of any kind. God will make all things new in Christ - even new Heavens and a new Earth.
As to the Lake of Fire itself - even Peter refers to it dissolving and melting the heavens and the earth:
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. - II Peter 3:10-13
I think it would be a lot more simple just to admit that we do not know for sure just what Heaven and hell is?
With all of the symbolism we can not prove anything except in our own minds, and i can not even do that much.
After all we can still argue about what we think it is and that is where the fun is.
I Corinthians 2:2
For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
That being said, God gave us paradise first, and it was rejected. All are born in a sin situation. He offers a way out, but if we do not take it, we go on our merry way to a bad place, whatever it is. I confess that I do not understand it all. But I agree with Job, shall not the judge of all the earth do right.
Not arguing the point you make because i don,t know, just pointing it out.
The translation of the verse depends upon your belief system. For example the King James, which you quoted:
(KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are,, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
If you look in the KJV you'll see "are" is in italics. This is to distinguish that the word is added by translators to make it more clear. It's not in the greek. And the next sentence doesn't give a "he" or "they" in who shall be tormented.
The Modern King James Version:
(MKJV) And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
"Were" is added and the next sentence reflects that only the devil is in the lake of fire at this point..."he will be tormented".
The New King James:
(NKJV) The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Again "are" is added and this time "they" is used to reflect the belief of the translator.
So it's own these verse prove nothing linguistically, they only prove the translator bias.
Well said.
This is the ugly part of this debate. Some actually see it that way.
RE; From what I’m going to do to you if you don’t let me in.
From what you’re doing to yourself if you won’t let me in.
I think that would sum it up better,
Believe it or not there are many people who do not believe in God, i know several of them my self who say the very same thing.
...” God’s orders in the Old Testament through His prophets to destroy the enemies of Israel, down to the last baby”....
I wrestled with that but not for long...all you have to do is see the Islamic children being presented as infants for suicide bombings and you know they have no chance to know what love is or survive their upbringing without being full of hate...the parents will see to it that their children learn hatred.
So when children die in the Islamic nations I see it as God taking them home and rescuing them from the abuse and mind altering teachings that rob these children fully of their God given personalites they would otherwise have as adults.
Close to 90% of Muslims who come from Islamic indoctrination, to this country, have serious mental health issues which cannot be overcome as long as they abide to the teachings of Islam....their minds are twisted from infancy.
As to the Lake of Fire itself - even Peter refers to it dissolving and melting the heavens and the earth:
I don,t know where or what heaven is but i think the new earth is not just a rebuilt earth.
Understood. But just as the first death wasn’t final, neither is the second death final.
Christ’s description of the rich man’s torment in hell is further evidence for punishment.
You present a false dichotomy regarding the wicked. God will remember them regardless whether He annihilates them or eternally tortures them. It’s the saved who won’t remember them. God will either expunge them from our memory, or He’ll change our thinking such that we praise His justice. That’s the only ways He can achieve this:
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
This promise is to those in heaven (verse 3). It of course doesn’t apply to the lake of fire. Your argument falls apart when you consider Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet are in the lake of fire too. And all of them are in the most excruciating pain imaginable for eternity.
For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
binary oppositions: God/Satan, Heaven/Hell
One does not exist without the other.
“Whoever is not with me is against me”
What the unbeliever is saying is more like, "I could never believe in a God who would send someone to a place like this Hell is supposed to be," or "I could never believe in a God who would create a place like this Hell He is supposed to have created for people."
The unbeliever may be wrong, but he or she is not illogical. The person who wrote this is playing mind games.
There’s also this passage, which is problematic for your view:
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Then the Bible is false by such reckoning, for if the Second Death is not final - then there is no need for a Savior, because life exists whether we bow to Him or not.
I do not subscribe to the tradition, whereby it is impossible to die because all live forever. Does scripture really teach life continues for eternity regardless of whether you are wicked or righteous? Only the place you go differs? That does not comport with my understanding of scripture.
The wages of sin is DEATH according to the bible. We've all earned death. That is why we need a Savior. It does not state that the wages of sin are eternal life in hellfire for those who are wicked. Unless you chose to redefine what death is as some do, i.e.; eternal separation from God. Yet the bible tells us that there is no consciousness or knowledge when dead. Just cessation from existing.
In any case, it makes no logical sense for the saints to await a resurrection if there is no need for one. We live forever according to tradition - only the place and the well being of the individual changes; one to eternal bliss and one to eternal torment and suffering.
I cannot square that tradition with the scriptures.
(KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And also was (he) added to the MKJV since it is not there in the KJV
I mean some take this issue so strong that if you disagree with them on the suffering vs annihilation thing you are not Christian.
Just stupid stuff like that.
Aren’t you bringing your biases into the mix as well? Why should the second death be final if the first death isn’t final?
But it appears we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Hell and the lake of fire are hard doctrines.
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