Posted on 01/09/2014 9:09:07 AM PST by SeekAndFind
The doctrinal argument of those verses ends up being whether or not those thrown in the Lake of Fire with the Devil live forever and ever - but in never-ending torment.
My understanding is that everything not in the Book of Life is thrown into that fire, including death and hell itself. Only Satan still exists in torment forever - as Revelation 21 tells us that death and hell are swallowed up in victory and there are no more tears or suffering of any kind. God will make all things new in Christ - even new Heavens and a new Earth.
As to the Lake of Fire itself - even Peter refers to it dissolving and melting the heavens and the earth:
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. - II Peter 3:10-13
I think it would be a lot more simple just to admit that we do not know for sure just what Heaven and hell is?
With all of the symbolism we can not prove anything except in our own minds, and i can not even do that much.
After all we can still argue about what we think it is and that is where the fun is.
I Corinthians 2:2
For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
That being said, God gave us paradise first, and it was rejected. All are born in a sin situation. He offers a way out, but if we do not take it, we go on our merry way to a bad place, whatever it is. I confess that I do not understand it all. But I agree with Job, shall not the judge of all the earth do right.
Not arguing the point you make because i don,t know, just pointing it out.
The translation of the verse depends upon your belief system. For example the King James, which you quoted:
(KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are,, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
If you look in the KJV you'll see "are" is in italics. This is to distinguish that the word is added by translators to make it more clear. It's not in the greek. And the next sentence doesn't give a "he" or "they" in who shall be tormented.
The Modern King James Version:
(MKJV) And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
"Were" is added and the next sentence reflects that only the devil is in the lake of fire at this point..."he will be tormented".
The New King James:
(NKJV) The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Again "are" is added and this time "they" is used to reflect the belief of the translator.
So it's own these verse prove nothing linguistically, they only prove the translator bias.
Well said.
This is the ugly part of this debate. Some actually see it that way.
RE; From what I’m going to do to you if you don’t let me in.
From what you’re doing to yourself if you won’t let me in.
I think that would sum it up better,
Believe it or not there are many people who do not believe in God, i know several of them my self who say the very same thing.
...” God’s orders in the Old Testament through His prophets to destroy the enemies of Israel, down to the last baby”....
I wrestled with that but not for long...all you have to do is see the Islamic children being presented as infants for suicide bombings and you know they have no chance to know what love is or survive their upbringing without being full of hate...the parents will see to it that their children learn hatred.
So when children die in the Islamic nations I see it as God taking them home and rescuing them from the abuse and mind altering teachings that rob these children fully of their God given personalites they would otherwise have as adults.
Close to 90% of Muslims who come from Islamic indoctrination, to this country, have serious mental health issues which cannot be overcome as long as they abide to the teachings of Islam....their minds are twisted from infancy.
As to the Lake of Fire itself - even Peter refers to it dissolving and melting the heavens and the earth:
I don,t know where or what heaven is but i think the new earth is not just a rebuilt earth.
Understood. But just as the first death wasn’t final, neither is the second death final.
Christ’s description of the rich man’s torment in hell is further evidence for punishment.
You present a false dichotomy regarding the wicked. God will remember them regardless whether He annihilates them or eternally tortures them. It’s the saved who won’t remember them. God will either expunge them from our memory, or He’ll change our thinking such that we praise His justice. That’s the only ways He can achieve this:
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
This promise is to those in heaven (verse 3). It of course doesn’t apply to the lake of fire. Your argument falls apart when you consider Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet are in the lake of fire too. And all of them are in the most excruciating pain imaginable for eternity.
For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
binary oppositions: God/Satan, Heaven/Hell
One does not exist without the other.
“Whoever is not with me is against me”
What the unbeliever is saying is more like, "I could never believe in a God who would send someone to a place like this Hell is supposed to be," or "I could never believe in a God who would create a place like this Hell He is supposed to have created for people."
The unbeliever may be wrong, but he or she is not illogical. The person who wrote this is playing mind games.
There’s also this passage, which is problematic for your view:
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Then the Bible is false by such reckoning, for if the Second Death is not final - then there is no need for a Savior, because life exists whether we bow to Him or not.
I do not subscribe to the tradition, whereby it is impossible to die because all live forever. Does scripture really teach life continues for eternity regardless of whether you are wicked or righteous? Only the place you go differs? That does not comport with my understanding of scripture.
The wages of sin is DEATH according to the bible. We've all earned death. That is why we need a Savior. It does not state that the wages of sin are eternal life in hellfire for those who are wicked. Unless you chose to redefine what death is as some do, i.e.; eternal separation from God. Yet the bible tells us that there is no consciousness or knowledge when dead. Just cessation from existing.
In any case, it makes no logical sense for the saints to await a resurrection if there is no need for one. We live forever according to tradition - only the place and the well being of the individual changes; one to eternal bliss and one to eternal torment and suffering.
I cannot square that tradition with the scriptures.
(KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And also was (he) added to the MKJV since it is not there in the KJV
I mean some take this issue so strong that if you disagree with them on the suffering vs annihilation thing you are not Christian.
Just stupid stuff like that.
Aren’t you bringing your biases into the mix as well? Why should the second death be final if the first death isn’t final?
But it appears we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Hell and the lake of fire are hard doctrines.
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