Christianity 101: The Laying on of Hands

For Christians the book of Hebrews is essential for analyzing what the early church believed and taught as doctrine. In instructing the church Paul (the likely author) chastised them for now growing in the faith.

In Hebrews 6:1 Paul reminded them of the "principles of the doctrine of Christ". In other words, those things which Christ said should be taught to Christians. These are foundational principles:

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

There are listed several foundational doctrines that Christ said should be taught as HIS doctrine. These are:

1. Repentence from dead works.
2. Faith toward God.
3. Baptisms
4. Laying on of hands
5. Resurrection of the dead.
6. Eternal judgment.

These things are Christianity 101 as Christ taught it. As Christ expected it to be taught by his followers.

Scripture has numerous examples of laying on of hands. In general there are 3 purposes as seen in scripture:

1. To impart the holy spirit to a fellow believer in Christ.
2. To heal.
3. To ordain to a Godly office.

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

In his example we see that there were a number of believers that had been baptized in the name of Jesus yet did not have the holy spirit of God. After the disciples of Christ lay hands on them they received the holy spirit.

This was recognized by not only true believers, but those who wished to exploit true believers:

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

It's important to note that this was approximately 3 to 5 years after the death of Christ.

Likewise when Paul was converted he had hands laid on him to receive the holy spirit:

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,fn who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Paul took this teaching and applied it in his ministry. In Acts 19, Paul came upon some disciples of Christ:

Act 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
Act 19:2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

So these disciples not only did not have the holy spirit, they didn't even know about it!

Act 19:3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Act 19:4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

In his 2nd letter to Timothy Paul reminds Timothy how he got the holy spirit and not to neglect it:

2Ti 1:6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
2Ti 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

In all the new testament there are only two instances in which the holy spirit was not given by the laying on of hands.

The first is in Acts 2 when the holy spirit was given to the first jewish Christians:

Act 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accordfn in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The second instance is Acts 10, when the first gentiles Christians came into the church of God:

Act 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
Act 10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
Act 10:47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

Note Peter's words: These first gentile Christians, the first gentile disciples, received the holy spirit just as the first jewish Christians did. In other words, this method of the holy spirit coming on was limited to these two groups.

In scripture wherever it is mentioned how the holy spirit is given to men it is through the laying on of hands.

This is not a popular concept today and in fact it is often viciously attacked. The reasons for this can only be guessed at but tradition certainly plays a large part.

But it is incorrect to say it is not Christian nor biblical because as scripture points out it is a foundational belief of Christianity.

“Remember I said your false statement that we teach that everyone else is going to hell is the exact opposite of what we believe....”

You know what! You totally got me on this one! You see, I totally forgot you held to this belief. (My Biblical Christianity gets me to thinking that people share it sometimes.) From the United Church of Beelzebub’s website on the topic:

“Is there hope for the unbelieving person who rejected God’s calling and spurned His way of life? No, a person who has knowingly refused God’s calling and the way of life He reveals has only the lake of fire to look forward to, which will end his or her existence for eternity (Hebrews 6:4-6
; Hebrews 10:26-29). However, there is another type of unbeliever—one who never had the opportunity to choose or reject God’s way of life. Many sincere people believe that we must “accept Jesus” in this life or we are lost forever. But what about the billions of people who have lived out their lives without ever hearing the name of Christ and therefore had no chance at salvation (Acts 4:12
)? Is it fair for God to destroy them forever when they never really had an opportunity to understand His truth?
Many know that God will resurrect the saints at Christ’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:52
), but most read right over Christ’s teachings about a second resurrection. He spoke of people from different ages coming face-to-face in “the day of judgment” (Matthew 11:20-24 Matthew 12:41-42; Luke 10:12-15... A second resurrection allows a first chance at salvation”

http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/will-everyone-have-chance-salvation-what-happens-after-death-resurrection-judgment-day

Should have been mindful of it, as it’s quite common for the religious cults to have something of this form. The Mormons just put people into lesser heavens, for example, if they can’t hack it to get into the Celestial. But, they do teach you get a second chance, and so they have “ghost missionaries” about.

Of course, not a whole lot of hope for those who “knowingly refused God’s calling and the way of life He reveals.” By “way of life,” it means those who refuse to live according to the teachings of your religion, observe the feasts, dietary laws, etc., for example:

“We believe in the commanded observance of the seven annual Holy Days given to ancient Israel by God and kept by Jesus Christ... We believe that those meats that are designated “unclean” by God in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 are not to be eaten.... Military Service - We believe that Christians are forbidden by the commandments of God from taking human life, directly or indirectly, and that bearing arms is contrary to this fundamental belief.”

http://www.ucg.org/fundamental-beliefs-info/

I guess I should be more careful from now on!

“Doug I may have asked this before. How do you trace apostolic authority for the laying of hands to receive the Holy Spirit? I know you said any believer can do it, but that would require, excuse the term, believer “zero” to get the ball running in your church. Is there a tradition in your church dating back to when? Is it your view there was a parallel tradition coming from the early church unknown to history given the historic claims of Rome and the Eastern Orthodox churches?

To show I am not being snarky in asking this, I will admit Armstrong claimed a different unbroken apostolic tradition from Rome. I think he called it the underground church. I did not get this from a website but from his early programs which my friends mom used to watch.”

Well, we have to consider all that Armstrong said on the matter. Armstrong’s actual roots, by the way, came out of the Church of God-Seventh Day Adventists. He changed his views from their’s, developing his “God Family” thing, at a later point, though remaining anti-Trinitarian and legalistic. Armstrong also claimed descent to a bunch of royalty, including King David on his mother’s side (of course). However, so far as being an Apostle, a “successor” of anybody, he said that:

“... biblical truth had been lost from the first century and rediscovered by him in 1927. He wrote about himself as the ‘Elijah’ who would preach before the second advent of Jesus Christ. He also taught that he was unique in the human race as Christ’s new ‘Apostle’ and that he had ‘restored’ essential truths to Christianity. He championed his work in gloating terms... saying, ‘I candidly feel it may be the most important book since the Bible!’” (Walter Martin, Ed. Hank Hanegraaff, The Kingdom of the Cults, pg. 482).

From Armstrong directly:

“I know of no other who has ever become a founder of a religion... who ever came into the truth the way God brought me into it... God brought me through a process that erased former misknowledge — and, as it were, gave me a clear start from ‘scratch.’ I wonder if you realize that every truth of God, accepted as truth doctrine and belief in the Worldwide Church of God, came from Christ through me, or was finally approved and made official through me... I was appointed by Jesus Christ, the head of the church.” (Herbert Armstrong, “Personal From...” The Plain Truth (Feb. 1967): 47.)

On interpreting the scripture, it was “like a jigsaw puzzle that must be assembled piece by biblical piece... and since before AD 70, it has been entirely suppressed.” (H. Armstrong, “How far can you get from being a Prophet of Doom?” The Plain Truth (Oct/Nov 1977): 3.)

In other words, the truth of scripture was hidden until Armstrong came around to decode it. He is, basically, your “Believer 0”, a super believer, who knew more than 2,000 years of Christianity ever did, including how things will play out in the future. Though, of course, his predictions didn’t turn out so well.

You know what! You totally got me on this one!

Why that's the closest to an apology for spreading vicious lies about me and my faith that I've ever seen! Thank you.

Let me reiterate this because it's important. Scripture teaches that the vast majority of people that have ever lived will be resurrected and given the chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and to know our savior without the deceptive influence of Satan. Revelation 20 sums up this process.

There are a series of resurrections. The first is a resurrection of the elect, the saints of God, those who were called to know and worship Christ in their lifetime. This resurrection to eternal spirit happens at the return of Christ.

Who is in here? If scripture is to be believed it will be those who have led a life in Christ, who have let Christ work in them to transform them to ones who believe that the most important things in live are to love the Lord God with all their hearts, soul, minds and strength and to love others as themselves.

I'm certain that there will be some members of UCG in this group. But I'm also equally certain that there will be others from every nation, kindred and tribe...and organization. UCG doesn't have a monopoly nor does it pretend to.

After Christ returns and after a millennium of peace on earth with Christ on a physical throne will come a general resurrection. The vast majority of people who have ever lived will hear the gospel and for the very first time will not hear it under the influence of Satan. Scripture indicates that the vast majority will choose life and will choose Christ.

So my friend that is why we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. Each and every person you and I come into contact with is likely to be either one of the elect or will become a Christian brother or sister in the general resurrection. Each and every person you and I meet are likely either Christians or future Christians. That's why Paul gives this advice:

2Ti 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

” Scripture teaches that the vast majority of people that have ever lived will be resurrected and given the chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and to know our savior without the deceptive influence of Satan. Revelation 20 sums up this process.”

The premise, according to the United Church of Beelzebub’s cult website, is that the second resurrection is a “second chance of life” for any of those who were ignorant enough of the UCG’s mission to qualify:

“Coming to life again will enable those brought to life in the second resurrection to have their only chance for salvation. The apostle Paul implied a second resurrection in his writings (Romans 11:26-27), and the book of Revelation speaks of it as specifically as Christ did (Revelation 20:5
, Revelation 20:11-12). These references are not about the resurrection of the saints spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52
, for the people in the above references are called enemies (Romans 11:28) and are contrasted with the saints (they are called “the rest of the dead” in Revelation 20:5).”

http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/will-everyone-have-chance-salvation-what-happens-after-death-resurrection-judgment-day

But this is just sloppy sophistry, since the actual passages in question do not speak of any second chance. Only condemnation. After the destruction of the wicked armies around Jerusalem by the fire of God, all the wicked dead are resurrected, their spirits brought out of hell, their bodies gathered and their souls reunited with them, and they are all placed before the judgment seat:

“And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”(Rev 20:9-15)

There is no period of “second chance” where they have the ability to repent and be saved. They are simply brought forward, and then cast into the lake of fire. Similarly, in Romans 11:26-28, there is no “implied” resurrection at all. Simply the UCG reading its cult theology into the text.

“So my friend that is why we are to love our neighbor as ourselves.”

It be more accurate to say, “this is why we shouldn’t spread our theology,” since any who do come to know it and refute it, are damned irreparably. From the United Church of Beelzebub’s website:

“If God is opening your mind to understand His truth, now is the time to act! There are no second chances. But it is comforting to know that He will mercifully give everyone a first chance.” (Previous link).

From the UCB again:

“But God is fair, just and merciful.”

The UCB says this in their attempt at making us ignore scriptures like:

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

As the scripture says, all men are guilty before God, regardless of how much “light” they have received. As all men have received, to a certain extent, the law of God imprinted on their hearts, as well as the light of nature revealing the existence of God, therefore they are summarily rendered “without excuse,” (Rom 1:20, 2:14, Rom 3:19) and “as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law (Rom 2:12). And again, “for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God”(Rom 3:9-11).If any man is in the world who never heard the Gospel, it was by the infallible power of God, and not by random chance, that he was left so abandoned. And, therefore, it was one of those whom God chose not to have mercy on, in accordance with His almighty sovereignty (Rom 9:18-21). Salvation is through Jesus Christ only, and whoever does not believe in Him is damned already (John 14:16, 3:18).

Coming to life again will enable those brought to life in the second resurrection to have their only chance for salvation. The apostle Paul implied a second resurrection in his writings (Romans 11:26-27), and the book of Revelation speaks of it as specifically as Christ did (Revelation 20:5 , Revelation 20:11-12). These references are not about the resurrection of the saints spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52 , for the people in the above references are called enemies (Romans 11:28)<> You're right and nobody is making the argument that the people in Romans 11:26-27 are the saints. They are Israel who will be saved in the 2nd resurrection. That's why Paul can confidently state they'll be saved even though they're not believers today. He knows that God promised their salvation, living and dead, and that will happen in the 2nd resurrection. They are part of the rest of the dead.

But this is just sloppy sophistry, since the actual passages in question do not speak of any second chance. Only condemnation

The actual words used don't imply condemnation, but rather a judgment period:

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

The word translated "judged" is "krino" and the best sense of it is:

"to judge, to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it"

Note this is like a trial. People are go through a period of time in which they are judged by their works according to the "books" which can only be the books of the bible.

They are resurrected to life, they are given the gospel by Christ, they are given a chance to learn and grow in God's grace and are judged during a period of time. If they respond they earn life everlasting, if not lake of fire.

Out of curiosity in your theology what is the fate of the billions of people who lived before Christ or who never came to know Christ?

And while we're at it what exactly are you? I've not heard you confess Christianity..are you catholic, protestant or something else? What church do you go to?

“People are go through a period of time in which they are judged by their works “

All those judged by their works receive damnation as a result, since:

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.” (Gal 3:10-11)

Without perfect obedience to the law, it is impossible to be justified by the law.

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

In fact, to fulfill the law perfectly is simply our duty, of which no reward should be expected.

Luk_17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

As was made clear previously, “all the world is guilty before God,” including both Jews and Gentiles, the latter of which “without law shall perish without law,” and are “without excuse.”

“You’re right and nobody is making the argument that the people in Romans 11:26-27 are the saints. They are Israel who will be saved in the 2nd resurrection.”

No one is saved in the second resurrection, as already demonstrated. Furthermore, not all Israel is Israel, as Paul makes clear in the same text:

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.”
(Rom 9:6-7)

Again:

Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 11 is in the context of the blinding of national Israel at large, with the salvation of the elect, such as Paul Himself, out of that larger body:

“I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”
(Rom 11:1-5)

Israel is not “cast away,” since God preserves an elect out of that larger body according to the flesh. In this context, “All Israel is saved,” and not that these people who are cut off for unbelief, and of all the wicked Jews such as the Pharisees who are told “how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” will then be saved after death, which is nowhere taught in the scripture.

“Out of curiosity in your theology what is the fate of the billions of people who lived before Christ or who never came to know Christ?”

Already answered in my previous post, with a lot of other stuff that you ignored. You should read my posts before responding to me.

“And while we’re at it what exactly are you? I’ve not heard you confess Christianity..are you catholic, protestant or something else? What church do you go to?”

Let it be clear that, since you are a member of a known religious cult, I am under no obligation to answer you as if we are fellow Christians.

That said, I’m an Orthodox Presbyterian. Not to be confused with the PCUSA.

Okay, so if I understand the logic Israel is saved because some who are not of Israel represent Israel, the remnant fulfills it.

But that view is contradicted later in Romans 11:

Rom 11:11 (CEV) Do I mean that the people of Israel fell, never to get up again? Certainly not! Their failure made it possible for the Gentiles to be saved, and this will make the people of Israel jealous.
Rom 11:12 But if the rest of the world's people were helped so much by Israel's sin and loss, they will be helped even more by their full return.

Paul promises a FULL return of Israel. He then goes on:

Rom 11:25 My friends, I don't want you Gentiles to be too proud of yourselves. So I will explain the mystery of what has happened to the people of Israel. Some of them have become stubborn, and they will stay like that until the complete number of you Gentiles has come in.

So all of Israel won't be saved until every last gentile has come in:

Rom 11:26 In this way all of Israel will be saved, as the Scriptures say, "From Zion someone will come to rescue us. Then Jacob's descendants will stop being evil.

ALL of Israel saved. Every Israelite who ever lived. Because God promised it.

Rom 11:27 This is what the Lord has promised to do when he forgives their sins."
Rom 11:28 The people of Israel are treated as God's enemies, so that the good news can come to you Gentiles. But they are still the chosen ones, and God loves them because of their famous ancestors.

Israelites ARE God's chosen people. Gentiles are fortunate that we've cast our lots with them.

Rom 11:29 God doesn't take back the gifts he has given or forget about the people he has chosen.
Rom 11:30 At one time you Gentiles rejected God. But now Israel has rejected God, and you have been shown mercy.
Rom 11:31 And because of the mercy shown to you, they will also be shown mercy.

Now how could every Israelite who ever lived possibly be saved? The second resurrection is the ONLY way. The only way for them to be saved is to believe in Christ. That is the story of the 2nd resurrection. It is a fulfillment of God's promises to his chosen people.

This future resurrection is prophesied in Ezekiel 37.

For further info God's Magnificent Series of Covenants

“ALL of Israel saved. Every Israelite who ever lived. Because God promised it.”

Here are some Jews who are either condemned to everlasting punishment, in hell, or else threatened with punishment, contrary to your claim:

“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
(Dan 12:1-2)

Notice also how the promise of deliverance is only to the “people... found written in the book.” The same language is in Revelation, wherein those of the First resurrection are found in the book, and all those in the second resurrection are judged to “everlasting contempt.” The people mentioned here, of course, are Jews, and not just to the Gentiles who have the risk of condemnation.

Another:

“And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.” (Luk 16:23-26)

He cries out to Abraham his ‘father,’ obviously indicating the rich man is a Jew. This also refutes your Cult’s teachings on Soul-sleep.

“The second resurrection is the ONLY way. The only way for them to be saved is to believe in Christ. That is the story of the 2nd resurrection. It is a fulfillment of God’s promises to his chosen people.”

Notice though that your argument is completely circular. You believe what you do because 1) Your religion teaches it, and, therefore, it “MUST” be true, and so verses must mean what you claim they mean, because of your preconceived notion received from the disciples of that megalomaniac Armstrong. You also are placing demands of God to embrace your version of “fairness,” though rather illogically. If the second resurrection is only a “chance,’ it does not follow that all the Jews are saved. Only those who take up the chance, among the Jews and Gentiles. It’s also irrational on another level, because the UCG demands that everyone submit to their religion and receive baptism and the laying on of hands from THEIR ministers. If this is not done, then they have to hopefully be ignorant enough to qualify for the second resurrection to be saved. All Christians who had faith in Christ, in your view, did so in vain. But then, if this is the case, it is much better not to preach at all, as it should be relatively easy to convert all mankind after they’ve been dead for a thousand years and resurrected, at least according to your view. Then again, you also say “they will be judged by their works,” that is, they will have a chance to be justified by keeping the law... except for the Jews, whom you hold are exempt.

“This future resurrection is prophesied in Ezekiel 37.”

So claims your website, which, I suspect, represents the entirety of your knowledge. Whatever does not exist on that website, you know nothing about, nor can answer.

“Does this include babies that died before they could comprehend Christ? The unborn that were aborted?”

The children of the elect ought to be well hoped for (though we cannot claim to know anything about the children of the reprobate), since:

“For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far of”, and again, “Let the little children come to me... for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven” and, again, “For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.” (Acts 2:39, Matt 19:14, 1 Cor 7:14).

But this is a hope, based on God’s covenant with the Elect, and not a guarantee, as, between the two twins Jacob and Esau, “Jacob hath I loved, and Esau hath I hated,” before either had done any good or evil (Rom 9:11). So God’s sovereignty must be maintained. Furthermore, though a child is not guilty of any sin they have committed, within them is, we can say, the very ‘seed” and wellspring of death, upon which all manner of sin will inevitably be produced. As “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.” And again, “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.” (Psalm 51:5, Job 14:4). So all children are born unclean in God’s sight, and already spiritually dead, and unable to be saved but by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit:

“Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)

Therefore, if any child is saved, it cannot be by any cleanliness or life that is innate to their bodies or souls, or of a passiveness or ignorance that excuses them, but by the positive act of God, who places within them seed faith, or regenerates them, prior to their early retrieval into heaven. As Paul says, again, to the two children yet unborn, “... that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth” (Rom 9:11). Not by their foreseen works, nor by any good or evil that they had done, but by the “call.” And, again: “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy” (Rom 9:16).

And if it is by the mercy of God, it cannot be by He who “wills” it or he who “runs,” that is, works for it, as in your religion, but only by the active movement of God on the soul of the child, or of any man, according to His own good purpose and timing.

So all salvation is by the grace of God, which is given according to whomever He pleases, and withheld as He pleases.

“So the answer to the question, if I can read between the lines, is that you believe that the billions and billions of people that lived before Christ was born, and that never had the chance to hear about Christ or Christianity are all going straight to hell.”

Why do you need to read between the lines when I said it outright? “All the world is guilty before God,” what do you suppose that means? Again, “Both Jews and Gentiles are under sin.” What does that mean? Again, “Any who do not believe are condemned already.” What do you propose that means if not that “billions and billions of people will be condemned who never heard of Christ,” and plenty more who DID hear of Christ too! Since, as I showed before, all mankind are spiritually dead already, and are bones out in the wilderness, which cannot live until God breathes new life to them. And this breathing of new life is the sovereign act of God, which He is not obligated to give to any. He gives it only to whomever He pleases:

“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” (Rom 9:18-21)

You're making the case that children can (possibly) be saved without actually being a believer. Without professing the name of Christ. This goes against scripture in many ways.

So just to be clear, you believe that God is going to allow billions and billions of people that never had a chance to know salvation to burn and be tortured in hell for eternity?

That also goes against scripture in many ways.

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Compare this to:

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Sounds like the same thing to me...

And:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

God desires all men to be saved and to know the truth. Yet you would say that this doesn't apply to the billions and billions of people who never knew the truth.

Again, you face a dilemma. Believe what the bible says and what God wants and build your theology from that...or try to find ways to get around what the bible says.

"Those in the first resurrection were resurrected to spirit life 1000 years before this...there is no need for them to be judged. As noted earlier the actual word here for "judged" doesn't mean "sentenced". It means a process of making a judgment. If the conclusion is forgone, that all these people are going to the lake of fire, then there was no reason for Jesus Christ to use that word in the verse. It would have been "katakrinō", not "krino". BTW you can see the context of both those words in 1 Corinthians 11:32." ------------------------------------------------------------------ Read Rev 20 again: "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:11-15) There is no "gap" period in which these men are released from before the Judges seat and can get a second chance at life, to see if whether or not they can hack it and achieve salvation based on their works. They stand before the judgment seat of Christ, with all the Saints sitting in judgment along with Christ, and they (the judged) are cast into the lake of fire where their torment is forever and ever. The definition of Krino according to strong's dictionary also includes the meaning "to make a judgement," or to "decree" or finalize a punishment. You are only presenting the fantasy definition from the UCB. Observe how it is used in all these examples: Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. The word krino here is translated "determined." Pilate was not going to "try him" to let him go. He had already decided it. Again: Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: The word "krino" here is translated to "sentence is." James here is not hanging the audience in suspense, but is giving out a decision already made. Again: Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem. The word translated "krino" here is ordained, which is, again, not a judgment held up in suspension, but is a decision made by the Apostles already decreed. The only sense in which we can say it is a "process of making a judgment" in Rev 20 is in that they are getting their punishments according to the things they did in life, which is being reviewed right then and there before the Throne. They are standing before the great throne, and their whole lives are being examined. Without the blood of the lamb, they cannot have any sins excused, but must be punished for them. Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Naturally none are 'justified' by the works mentioned in the text, but their works will be examined and their punishments will be meted out accordingly, in perfect justice. Though the scripture does not describe any different levels of suffering in the lake of fire, though it is "everlasting" in every case. If Armstrong was lucky, he might be in a spot that burns less hot than others. But, unlikely for a false Apostle. The same word "Krino" is used when speaking of this great judgment in Matthew: Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said (5627) unto them, Verily I say (5719) unto you, That ye which have followed (5660) me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit (5661) in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit (5695) upon twelve thrones, judging (5723) the twelve tribes of Israel. The "judging" there at the end is Krino, and means that we will try (in "court") the "twelve tribes of Israel," whom you said earlier would get to heaven infallibly. Obviously, if they are to get to heaven infallibly, then they must be with the faithful in the first resurrection to avoid standing before the judgment seat in the first place, as there is no escape from having one's sins judged. By the way, all those who do not believe in Christ are "damned" already, using katakrino. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And again, this time using krino, but with the added word "already": Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Using the word katakrino, those who believe in Christ are no longer under any kind of "condemnation": Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. "This isn't a statement about the afterlife. It's a parable that shows how gentiles (the poor)... --------------------------------------------------------------- It's specifically a statement about the after life: Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; After both die, they wake up in their respective places. Lazarus, in Abraham's Bosom (paradise), and the rich man woke up in hell: Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "IF it were a literal description then there a number of descriptions that don't make it an orthodox interpretation." ------------------------------------------------------------------- You're free to actually make an argument. It's better than just making assertions. "Paul said, promised, that ALL of Israel will be saved. You just don't believe it." --------------------------------------------------------------- Just your circular argument again, which was already sorted with the scripture from Daniel and the one in Matthew. As is usual, you only address some of my posts, and ignore all the rest, and what you do address is just assertion. Only the Jews written in the book of life will be saved. Not the ones in hell, or any of the Jews who come under condemnation throughout the scripture, like Judas for instance. "God desires all men to be saved and to know the truth. Yet you would say that this doesn't apply to the billions and billions of people who never knew the truth." ---------------------------------------------------------------- Remember that all these people are already under "condemnation" (katakrino), as previously demonstrated, though you keep ignoring it. If you cannot uncondemn them somehow, then their fate is sealed even before they get to the judgment seat, and all that's left is the "krino" of their works inorder to mete out the specifics of their judgment, assuming there are different degrees of suffering in the lake of fire. Even committing just one sin, actually, puts you under the guilt of them all: Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Furthermore, the context does not support your position: 1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. Paul is speaking of men in all their various stations. Not all men everywhere, otherwise all men would be saved. Not just the Jews in your conception, but the Gentiles too. Obviously, some are indeed created for the purpose of damnation: Pro_16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. And again: Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? "You're making the case that children can (possibly) be saved without actually being a believer. Without professing the name of Christ. This goes against scripture in many ways." ----------------------------------------------------------------- See: http://www.apuritansmind.com/covenant-theology/a-catechism-on-infant-inclusion-in-the-covenant-of-grace-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/

Oops, previous post got jumbled. Here it is again, fixed:

“Those in the first resurrection were resurrected to spirit life 1000 years before this...there is no need for them to be judged. As noted earlier the actual word here for “judged” doesn’t mean “sentenced”. It means a process of making a judgment. If the conclusion is forgone, that all these people are going to the lake of fire, then there was no reason for Jesus Christ to use that word in the verse. It would have been “katakrino”, not “krino”. BTW you can see the context of both those words in 1 Corinthians 11:32.”

Read Rev 20 again:

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
(Rev 20:11-15)

There is no “gap” period in which these men are released from before the Judges seat and can get a second chance at life, to see if whether or not they can hack it and achieve salvation based on their works. They stand before the judgment seat of Christ, with all the Saints sitting in judgment along with Christ, and they (the judged) are cast into the lake of fire where their torment is forever and ever.

The definition of Krino according to strong’s dictionary also includes the meaning “to make a judgement,” or to “decree” or finalize a punishment. You are only presenting the fantasy definition from the UCB. Observe how it is used in all these examples:

The word krino here is translated “determined.” Pilate was not going to “try him” to let him go. He had already decided it. Again:

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

The word “krino” here is translated to “sentence is.” James here is not hanging the audience in suspense, but is giving out a decision already made. Again:

Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

The word translated “krino” here is ordained, which is, again, not a judgment held up in suspension, but is a decision made by the Apostles already decreed.

The only sense in which we can say it is a “process of making a judgment” in Rev 20 is in that they are getting their punishments according to the things they did in life, which is being reviewed right then and there before the Throne. They are standing before the great throne, and their whole lives are being examined. Without the blood of the lamb, they cannot have any sins excused, but must be punished for them.

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Naturally none are ‘justified’ by the works mentioned in the text, but their works will be examined and their punishments will be meted out accordingly, in perfect justice. Though the scripture does not describe any different levels of suffering in the lake of fire, though it is “everlasting” in every case. If Armstrong was lucky, he might be in a spot that burns less hot than others. But, unlikely for a false Apostle.

The same word “Krino” is used when speaking of this great judgment in Matthew:

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said (5627) unto them, Verily I say (5719) unto you, That ye which have followed (5660) me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit (5661) in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit (5695) upon twelve thrones, judging (5723) the twelve tribes of Israel.

The “judging” there at the end is Krino, and means that we will try (in “court”) the “twelve tribes of Israel,” whom you said earlier would get to heaven infallibly. Obviously, if they are to get to heaven infallibly, then they must be with the faithful in the first resurrection to avoid standing before the judgment seat in the first place, as there is no escape from having one’s sins judged.

By the way, all those who do not believe in Christ are “damned” already, using katakrino.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And again, this time using krino, but with the added word “already”:

Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Using the word katakrino, those who believe in Christ are no longer under any kind of “condemnation”:

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

“This isn’t a statement about the afterlife. It’s a parable that shows how gentiles (the poor)...

It’s specifically a statement about the after life:

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

After both die, they wake up in their respective places. Lazarus, in Abraham’s Bosom (paradise), and the rich man woke up in hell:

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

“IF it were a literal description then there a number of descriptions that don’t make it an orthodox interpretation.”

You’re free to actually make an argument. It’s better than just making assertions.

“Paul said, promised, that ALL of Israel will be saved. You just don’t believe it.”

Just your circular argument again, which was already sorted with the scripture from Daniel and the one in Matthew. As is usual, you only address some of my posts, and ignore all the rest, and what you do address is just assertion. Only the Jews written in the book of life will be saved. Not the ones in hell, or any of the Jews who come under condemnation throughout the scripture, like Judas for instance.

“God desires all men to be saved and to know the truth. Yet you would say that this doesn’t apply to the billions and billions of people who never knew the truth.”

Remember that all these people are already under “condemnation” (katakrino), as previously demonstrated, though you keep ignoring it. If you cannot uncondemn them somehow, then their fate is sealed even before they get to the judgment seat, and all that’s left is the “krino” of their works inorder to mete out the specifics of their judgment, assuming there are different degrees of suffering in the lake of fire. Even committing just one sin, actually, puts you under the guilt of them all:

Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Furthermore, the context does not support your position:

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

Paul is speaking of men in all their various stations. Not all men everywhere, otherwise all men would be saved. Not just the Jews in your conception, but the Gentiles too. Obviously, some are indeed created for the purpose of damnation:

Pro_16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

And again:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

“You’re making the case that children can (possibly) be saved without actually being a believer. Without professing the name of Christ. This goes against scripture in many ways.”

See: http://www.apuritansmind.com/covenant-theology/a-catechism-on-infant-inclusion-in-the-covenant-of-grace-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem

You cite each one of these as evidence in essence that "krino" means to condemn. No period of judging, no deliberation. Just condemnation. But each of these instances is clearly pointing back to a deliberation, a judgment. Pilate had deliberated the fate of Christ. The apostles had deliberated over circumcision in Acts 15. These verses are all highlighting the deliberation process which is why it's also used in the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20:12. It IS a judgement period according to the clear use of the word.

Again, IF it were an automatic condemnation of everyone that had been resurrected then there would be no reason to use the word.

If the scenario is as you suggest they would have used "katacrisis" which means "sentencing adversely (the act)" or "katacrino" which means to "judge against".

As it is, the word used implies simply a judgment period and NOT a decision either way. If there were a decision good or bad it might be "krima"

So again, like it or not, that is what scripture says.

And Jesus said (5627) unto them, Verily I say (5719) unto you, That ye which have followed (5660) me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit (5661) in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit (5695) upon twelve thrones, judging (5723) the twelve tribes of Israel. The “judging” there at the end is Krino, and means that we will try (in “court”) the “twelve tribes of Israel,” whom you said earlier would get to heaven infallibly.

As a point of fact I did not say "infallibly" nor do I believe that. The argument has been that God will give them a chance in the second resurrection to know the truth. The scripure you posted proves it. They are NOT condemned or sentenced. They are krino, at the great white throne judgment. They go through a process, a tribunal, a period of time, are a given a choice...know and love the Lord or die the second death.

This judgment period is spoken again of by Christ when he was upbraiding the evil generation he was living in:

Luk 11:31 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment (krisis) with the men of this generation and condemn (katakrino) them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
Luk 11:32 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment (krisis) with this generation and condemn (katakrino) it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

In these verses it's a "krisis" which is another word for a trial or a tribunal. Christ says that in the tribunal there are those who will rise up in that resurrection and condemn (sentence adversely) others.

Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Using the word katakrino, those who believe in Christ are no longer under any kind of “condemnation”:

There are no verses more important than these three for understanding what happens after death:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The choices are PERISH, which means to be fully destroyed, or to have everlasting life. You, and traditional Christiany, change this to the choices of "everlasting life burning in hell and everlasting life."

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The mission of Jesus when he came the first time was NOT to judge (krino). His mission was to make sure people would NOT have to go through the krino, the second resurrection.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If we believe in Christ, we will NOT go through the krino of the second resurrection. We will be in the first resurrection as Saints of God. BUT someone who knew Christ and rejected him is already going through a tribunal. Those who have rejected Christ in the life will either stay dead or be resurrected into the lake of fire.

The wording specific here. ONLY those who have known and rejected Christ are in the katakrino, the tribunal. Everyone else who have never been called or haven't had the chance to know Christ will go through a tribunal in the 2nd resurrection.

Remember that all these people are already under “condemnation” (katakrino), as previously demonstrated, though you keep ignoring it.

Not true, see above.

Obviously, some are indeed created for the purpose of damnation: Pro_16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. And again: Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Amazing...statement. These verses you quote are NOT supporting the notion that God created billions and billions of people only to torture them eternally. They are directly related to the argument that Paul is making about Israel and gentiles. He follows this up in chapter 11 and proceeds to show us EXACTLY why we shouldn't come away with the very idea your expressing.

“But each of these instances is clearly pointing back to a deliberation, a judgment.”

Don’t you even remember what your actual argument is? It is that “’judged’ doesn’t mean ‘sentenced’.” In other words, the “determining” can never become the “determined,” nor can it point back to the determining; the “judging” can never become the “judgment,” as the latter is the “sentencing” or the conclusion of the former. Thus the Apostles James can never say, after hearing all the facts, “my sentence is (krino)” and then declare it, since the “hearing of the facts” IS Krino, and the “sentence” is not the Krino (though, of course, it is) according to your gibbering sophistry. Pilate cannot have ‘determined,” that is, made his decision, since that is equivalent to the “sentencing” after hearing all of the facts in his own mind. So when you say they are “clearly pointing back to a deliberation,” all you’re doing is confirming my own argument, and not the stupid argument from the United Church of Beelzebub.

” The apostles had deliberated over circumcision in Acts 15.”

No, they deliberated over whether it was necessary to put anyone under both circumcision AND the laws of Moses:

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

This is important, because your religious cult teaches that men must follow Jewish dietary laws and celebrate their feasts.

“They are krino, at the great white throne judgment. They go through a process, a tribunal, a period of time, are a given a choice...know and love the Lord or die the second death.”

The “a period of time, are a [sic] given a choice” is not an argument you’ve actually been making in your posts. I mean, you’ve been stating that judgment and sentencing are mutually exclusive in the word Krino, already disproved, but you have not specifically provided any evidence that Krino means “a period of time, are a [sic] given a choice.” Of course, you HAVE to make this claim, because otherwise there is no gap or any “period of time” in the actual text.

If that is the case, then when the Jews meet to condemn a man to death, they are giving him a “period of time” to live a better life, and are giving him a choice on whether or not he will choose to follow Moses again. For example:

Joh 18:31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:

The “judge” here is Krino, which is only Pilate saying that they should be the ones to try Him in their own court. They refuse, since they say they do not have the authority to kill Him. The meaning here can only be “to determine guilt,” according to their own law, and not to give him a “period of time, to give him a choice.”

Hence also the word in Revelation 20, they will be judged “according to their works,” or, in other words, “according to the law,” as in any other court of law. (It is not a “choice,” as you pretend, but a judgment on their works only.) Not to see if they can be released from the trial to give life another chance, but to judge their works in a court of law, of which they can never escape since “no man is justified by his works.”

“As a point of fact I did not say “infallibly” nor do I believe that. The argument has been that God will give them a chance in the second resurrection to know the truth.”

Earlier you said that “All of Israel, of every generation that has ever lived, will be saved.” This is “infallibly,” or we could say that God’s decree (krino) to save them is immutable. It cannot change. And so there is no sense of “chance” here, it is a done deal, whether they don’t want to be saved or not, whether they can be saved by their “works” or not.

“You, and traditional Christiany, change this to the choices of “everlasting life burning in hell and everlasting life.”

This is exactly the choice given by Christ:

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned (katakrino).

You’re not a good enough sophist to get out of this one.

Here is its parallel in John:

Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The word here is not Katakrino, but Krino. Thus, whoever does not believe is both “katakrino” and “krino already”.

“The choices are PERISH, which means to be fully destroyed,”

The rich man in hell would sure wish that was the case. As were the Jews in Daniel doomed to “everlasting” punishment. Or, as in Isaiah, “where their worm dieth not”:

Isa_66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And again, where their torment rises “forever”, with no chance of rest:

Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

“If we believe in Christ,”

You mean: “If we believe in Christ, and are baptized by ministers of the UCB, and receive the laying on of hands, and follow the law, and preserve ourselves till the end.”

Remember, you are not a Christian. You are a member of the UCB, the United Church of Beelzebub.

“ONLY those who have known and rejected Christ are in the katakrino, the tribunal.”

The word used in the great white throne judgment is Krino, not Katakrino, as you have been stating. And yet, these people going through the “Krino” are being placed into the lake of fire.

Is there a third resurrection where they specifically go through the “Katakrino,” where instead of getting your imaginary “period of time, a choice,” they are just being tossed in? Either the people thrown into the fire get the choice too, or you’re just a sophist.

I’ll also add:

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The word for “guilty” here is Hupodikos, meaning, well, exactly what it means. “Guilty,” or “under sentence.” Thus, all the world under the law is guilty (under sentence) before God, and are damned already.

“These verses you quote are NOT supporting the notion that God created billions and billions of people only to torture them eternally.”

Just your opinion. Argument is better than just your silly little assertions.

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