Oops, previous post got jumbled. Here it is again, fixed:
“Those in the first resurrection were resurrected to spirit life 1000 years before this...there is no need for them to be judged. As noted earlier the actual word here for “judged” doesn’t mean “sentenced”. It means a process of making a judgment. If the conclusion is forgone, that all these people are going to the lake of fire, then there was no reason for Jesus Christ to use that word in the verse. It would have been “katakrino”, not “krino”. BTW you can see the context of both those words in 1 Corinthians 11:32.”
Read Rev 20 again:
“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
(Rev 20:11-15)
There is no “gap” period in which these men are released from before the Judges seat and can get a second chance at life, to see if whether or not they can hack it and achieve salvation based on their works. They stand before the judgment seat of Christ, with all the Saints sitting in judgment along with Christ, and they (the judged) are cast into the lake of fire where their torment is forever and ever.
The definition of Krino according to strong’s dictionary also includes the meaning “to make a judgement,” or to “decree” or finalize a punishment. You are only presenting the fantasy definition from the UCB. Observe how it is used in all these examples:
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
The word krino here is translated “determined.” Pilate was not going to “try him” to let him go. He had already decided it. Again:
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
The word “krino” here is translated to “sentence is.” James here is not hanging the audience in suspense, but is giving out a decision already made. Again:
Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
The word translated “krino” here is ordained, which is, again, not a judgment held up in suspension, but is a decision made by the Apostles already decreed.
The only sense in which we can say it is a “process of making a judgment” in Rev 20 is in that they are getting their punishments according to the things they did in life, which is being reviewed right then and there before the Throne. They are standing before the great throne, and their whole lives are being examined. Without the blood of the lamb, they cannot have any sins excused, but must be punished for them.
Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Naturally none are ‘justified’ by the works mentioned in the text, but their works will be examined and their punishments will be meted out accordingly, in perfect justice. Though the scripture does not describe any different levels of suffering in the lake of fire, though it is “everlasting” in every case. If Armstrong was lucky, he might be in a spot that burns less hot than others. But, unlikely for a false Apostle.
The same word “Krino” is used when speaking of this great judgment in Matthew:
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said (5627) unto them, Verily I say (5719) unto you, That ye which have followed (5660) me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit (5661) in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit (5695) upon twelve thrones, judging (5723) the twelve tribes of Israel.
The “judging” there at the end is Krino, and means that we will try (in “court”) the “twelve tribes of Israel,” whom you said earlier would get to heaven infallibly. Obviously, if they are to get to heaven infallibly, then they must be with the faithful in the first resurrection to avoid standing before the judgment seat in the first place, as there is no escape from having one’s sins judged.
By the way, all those who do not believe in Christ are “damned” already, using katakrino.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And again, this time using krino, but with the added word “already”:
Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Using the word katakrino, those who believe in Christ are no longer under any kind of “condemnation”:
Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
“This isn’t a statement about the afterlife. It’s a parable that shows how gentiles (the poor)...
It’s specifically a statement about the after life:
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
After both die, they wake up in their respective places. Lazarus, in Abraham’s Bosom (paradise), and the rich man woke up in hell:
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“IF it were a literal description then there a number of descriptions that don’t make it an orthodox interpretation.”
You’re free to actually make an argument. It’s better than just making assertions.
“Paul said, promised, that ALL of Israel will be saved. You just don’t believe it.”
Just your circular argument again, which was already sorted with the scripture from Daniel and the one in Matthew. As is usual, you only address some of my posts, and ignore all the rest, and what you do address is just assertion. Only the Jews written in the book of life will be saved. Not the ones in hell, or any of the Jews who come under condemnation throughout the scripture, like Judas for instance.
“God desires all men to be saved and to know the truth. Yet you would say that this doesn’t apply to the billions and billions of people who never knew the truth.”
Remember that all these people are already under “condemnation” (katakrino), as previously demonstrated, though you keep ignoring it. If you cannot uncondemn them somehow, then their fate is sealed even before they get to the judgment seat, and all that’s left is the “krino” of their works inorder to mete out the specifics of their judgment, assuming there are different degrees of suffering in the lake of fire. Even committing just one sin, actually, puts you under the guilt of them all:
Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Furthermore, the context does not support your position:
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
Paul is speaking of men in all their various stations. Not all men everywhere, otherwise all men would be saved. Not just the Jews in your conception, but the Gentiles too. Obviously, some are indeed created for the purpose of damnation:
Pro_16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
And again:
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
“You’re making the case that children can (possibly) be saved without actually being a believer. Without professing the name of Christ. This goes against scripture in many ways.”
You cite each one of these as evidence in essence that "krino" means to condemn. No period of judging, no deliberation. Just condemnation. But each of these instances is clearly pointing back to a deliberation, a judgment. Pilate had deliberated the fate of Christ. The apostles had deliberated over circumcision in Acts 15. These verses are all highlighting the deliberation process which is why it's also used in the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20:12. It IS a judgement period according to the clear use of the word.
Again, IF it were an automatic condemnation of everyone that had been resurrected then there would be no reason to use the word.
If the scenario is as you suggest they would have used "katacrisis" which means "sentencing adversely (the act)" or "katacrino" which means to "judge against".
As it is, the word used implies simply a judgment period and NOT a decision either way. If there were a decision good or bad it might be "krima"
So again, like it or not, that is what scripture says.
And Jesus said (5627) unto them, Verily I say (5719) unto you, That ye which have followed (5660) me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit (5661) in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit (5695) upon twelve thrones, judging (5723) the twelve tribes of Israel. The “judging” there at the end is Krino, and means that we will try (in “court”) the “twelve tribes of Israel,” whom you said earlier would get to heaven infallibly.
As a point of fact I did not say "infallibly" nor do I believe that. The argument has been that God will give them a chance in the second resurrection to know the truth. The scripure you posted proves it. They are NOT condemned or sentenced. They are krino, at the great white throne judgment. They go through a process, a tribunal, a period of time, are a given a choice...know and love the Lord or die the second death.
This judgment period is spoken again of by Christ when he was upbraiding the evil generation he was living in:
Luk 11:31 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment (krisis) with the men of this generation and condemn (katakrino) them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
Luk 11:32 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment (krisis) with this generation and condemn (katakrino) it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
In these verses it's a "krisis" which is another word for a trial or a tribunal. Christ says that in the tribunal there are those who will rise up in that resurrection and condemn (sentence adversely) others.
Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Using the word katakrino, those who believe in Christ are no longer under any kind of “condemnation”:
There are no verses more important than these three for understanding what happens after death:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The choices are PERISH, which means to be fully destroyed, or to have everlasting life. You, and traditional Christiany, change this to the choices of "everlasting life burning in hell and everlasting life."
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
The mission of Jesus when he came the first time was NOT to judge (krino). His mission was to make sure people would NOT have to go through the krino, the second resurrection.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
If we believe in Christ, we will NOT go through the krino of the second resurrection. We will be in the first resurrection as Saints of God. BUT someone who knew Christ and rejected him is already going through a tribunal. Those who have rejected Christ in the life will either stay dead or be resurrected into the lake of fire.
The wording specific here. ONLY those who have known and rejected Christ are in the katakrino, the tribunal. Everyone else who have never been called or haven't had the chance to know Christ will go through a tribunal in the 2nd resurrection.
Remember that all these people are already under “condemnation” (katakrino), as previously demonstrated, though you keep ignoring it.
Not true, see above.
Obviously, some are indeed created for the purpose of damnation: Pro_16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. And again: Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Amazing...statement. These verses you quote are NOT supporting the notion that God created billions and billions of people only to torture them eternally. They are directly related to the argument that Paul is making about Israel and gentiles. He follows this up in chapter 11 and proceeds to show us EXACTLY why we shouldn't come away with the very idea your expressing.