“But each of these instances is clearly pointing back to a deliberation, a judgment.”
Don’t you even remember what your actual argument is? It is that “’judged’ doesn’t mean ‘sentenced’.” In other words, the “determining” can never become the “determined,” nor can it point back to the determining; the “judging” can never become the “judgment,” as the latter is the “sentencing” or the conclusion of the former. Thus the Apostles James can never say, after hearing all the facts, “my sentence is (krino)” and then declare it, since the “hearing of the facts” IS Krino, and the “sentence” is not the Krino (though, of course, it is) according to your gibbering sophistry. Pilate cannot have ‘determined,” that is, made his decision, since that is equivalent to the “sentencing” after hearing all of the facts in his own mind. So when you say they are “clearly pointing back to a deliberation,” all you’re doing is confirming my own argument, and not the stupid argument from the United Church of Beelzebub.
” The apostles had deliberated over circumcision in Acts 15.”
No, they deliberated over whether it was necessary to put anyone under both circumcision AND the laws of Moses:
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
This is important, because your religious cult teaches that men must follow Jewish dietary laws and celebrate their feasts.
“They are krino, at the great white throne judgment. They go through a process, a tribunal, a period of time, are a given a choice...know and love the Lord or die the second death.”
The “a period of time, are a [sic] given a choice” is not an argument you’ve actually been making in your posts. I mean, you’ve been stating that judgment and sentencing are mutually exclusive in the word Krino, already disproved, but you have not specifically provided any evidence that Krino means “a period of time, are a [sic] given a choice.” Of course, you HAVE to make this claim, because otherwise there is no gap or any “period of time” in the actual text.
If that is the case, then when the Jews meet to condemn a man to death, they are giving him a “period of time” to live a better life, and are giving him a choice on whether or not he will choose to follow Moses again. For example:
Joh 18:31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
The “judge” here is Krino, which is only Pilate saying that they should be the ones to try Him in their own court. They refuse, since they say they do not have the authority to kill Him. The meaning here can only be “to determine guilt,” according to their own law, and not to give him a “period of time, to give him a choice.”
Hence also the word in Revelation 20, they will be judged “according to their works,” or, in other words, “according to the law,” as in any other court of law. (It is not a “choice,” as you pretend, but a judgment on their works only.) Not to see if they can be released from the trial to give life another chance, but to judge their works in a court of law, of which they can never escape since “no man is justified by his works.”
“As a point of fact I did not say “infallibly” nor do I believe that. The argument has been that God will give them a chance in the second resurrection to know the truth.”
Earlier you said that “All of Israel, of every generation that has ever lived, will be saved.” This is “infallibly,” or we could say that God’s decree (krino) to save them is immutable. It cannot change. And so there is no sense of “chance” here, it is a done deal, whether they don’t want to be saved or not, whether they can be saved by their “works” or not.
“You, and traditional Christiany, change this to the choices of “everlasting life burning in hell and everlasting life.”
This is exactly the choice given by Christ:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned (katakrino).
You’re not a good enough sophist to get out of this one.
Here is its parallel in John:
Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The word here is not Katakrino, but Krino. Thus, whoever does not believe is both “katakrino” and “krino already”.
“The choices are PERISH, which means to be fully destroyed,”
The rich man in hell would sure wish that was the case. As were the Jews in Daniel doomed to “everlasting” punishment. Or, as in Isaiah, “where their worm dieth not”:
Isa_66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
And again, where their torment rises “forever”, with no chance of rest:
Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
“If we believe in Christ,”
You mean: “If we believe in Christ, and are baptized by ministers of the UCB, and receive the laying on of hands, and follow the law, and preserve ourselves till the end.”
Remember, you are not a Christian. You are a member of the UCB, the United Church of Beelzebub.
“ONLY those who have known and rejected Christ are in the katakrino, the tribunal.”
The word used in the great white throne judgment is Krino, not Katakrino, as you have been stating. And yet, these people going through the “Krino” are being placed into the lake of fire.
Is there a third resurrection where they specifically go through the “Katakrino,” where instead of getting your imaginary “period of time, a choice,” they are just being tossed in? Either the people thrown into the fire get the choice too, or you’re just a sophist.
I’ll also add:
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
The word for “guilty” here is Hupodikos, meaning, well, exactly what it means. “Guilty,” or “under sentence.” Thus, all the world under the law is guilty (under sentence) before God, and are damned already.
“These verses you quote are NOT supporting the notion that God created billions and billions of people only to torture them eternally.”
Just your opinion. Argument is better than just your silly little assertions.
Yes I do remember.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged KRINO) according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
You're argument is that "krino" in Revelation 20 IS not a period of judgment despite the meaning of the word "krino"...which is period of judging, trial or tribunal. This is important, because your religious cult teaches that men must follow Jewish dietary laws and celebrate their feasts.
You're wrong (again) and trying to change the subject.
but you have not specifically provided any evidence that Krino means “a period of time, are a [sic] given a choice.” Of course, you HAVE to make this claim, because otherwise there is no gap or any “period of time” in the actual text.
No, I have to make the claim because that's what the bible says. That's the truth.
Joh 18:31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death: The “judge” here is Krino, which is only Pilate saying that they should be the ones to try Him in their own court. They refuse, since they say they do not have the authority to kill Him. The meaning here can only be “to determine guilt,” according to their own law, and not to give him a “period of time, to give him a choice.”
Nonsense. The context here is that Pilate really didn't want to get involved in this so told them to go have their own trial. The sentence for what they were going to charge Jesus with was death. That's the only thing it means. It doesn't change the fact that Pilate wanted them to have a trial even if was just in a kangaroo court.
“As a point of fact I did not say “infallibly” nor do I believe that. The argument has been that God will give them a chance in the second resurrection to know the truth.” Earlier you said that “All of Israel, of every generation that has ever lived, will be saved.” This is “infallibly,”
No, that's you assuming that I meant something I didn't and then attempting to tear it down. A strawman argument.
“You, and traditional Christiany, change this to the choices of “everlasting life burning in hell and everlasting life.” This is exactly the choice given by Christ:
No, it's not.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Perish is Strong's G22 and it means "to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.".
Jesus was using it because he taught and understood scripture:
Malachi 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
Over time a new "theory" was invented that changed the words of Christ to something he didn't say. Clearly and absoltely he says the choices for man are to be fully destroyed or to have everlasting life. This has been perverted to "Have eternal life and be tortured forever or have eternal life." This is not linguistically what Christ said as recorded in scripture. This is not what other scripture says.
The rich man in hell would sure wish that was the case. As were the Jews in Daniel doomed to “everlasting” punishment. Or, as in Isaiah, “where their worm dieth not”:
This really deserves a whole nother thread.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go out and see the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be put out; and they shall be an object of disgust to all flesh.
So first it's referring clearly to "dead bodies" and not any kind of eternal life. And the Hebrew definitely means "dead bodies".
The reason this confuses you and why you have to continue to misread and misapply scripture is that you have chosen to believe a tradition that we are immortal and eternal BEFORE we are saved by Christ. As a point of fact this was the original lie of Satan:
Gen 3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' "
Gen 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
Surely we WILL die, be destroyed fully. You are agreeing with the lie of Satan when you go against scripture and assert that we will NOT surely die.