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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Dan 12:1-2)
Notice also how the promise of deliverance is only to the “people... found written in the book.” The same language is in Revelation, wherein those of the First resurrection are found in the book, and all those in the second resurrection are judged to “everlasting contempt.

The book of life applies to the second resurrection as well. It's explicitly mentioned as part of the process of the 2nd resurrection:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,fn and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Those in the first resurrection were resurrected to spirit life 1000 years before this...there is no need for them to be judged. As noted earlier the actual word here for "judged" doesn't mean "sentenced". It means a process of making a judgment. If the conclusion is forgone, that all these people are going to the lake of fire, then there was no reason for Jesus Christ to use that word in the verse. It would have been "katakrinō", not "krino". BTW you can see the context of both those words in 1 Corinthians 11:32.

In other words, the actual words used in the verse do not agree with your interpretation of the events.

94 posted on 12/25/2013 7:27:51 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
"Those in the first resurrection were resurrected to spirit life 1000 years before this...there is no need for them to be judged. As noted earlier the actual word here for "judged" doesn't mean "sentenced". It means a process of making a judgment. If the conclusion is forgone, that all these people are going to the lake of fire, then there was no reason for Jesus Christ to use that word in the verse. It would have been "katakrinō", not "krino". BTW you can see the context of both those words in 1 Corinthians 11:32." ------------------------------------------------------------------ Read Rev 20 again: "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:11-15) There is no "gap" period in which these men are released from before the Judges seat and can get a second chance at life, to see if whether or not they can hack it and achieve salvation based on their works. They stand before the judgment seat of Christ, with all the Saints sitting in judgment along with Christ, and they (the judged) are cast into the lake of fire where their torment is forever and ever. The definition of Krino according to strong's dictionary also includes the meaning "to make a judgement," or to "decree" or finalize a punishment. You are only presenting the fantasy definition from the UCB. Observe how it is used in all these examples: Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. The word krino here is translated "determined." Pilate was not going to "try him" to let him go. He had already decided it. Again: Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: The word "krino" here is translated to "sentence is." James here is not hanging the audience in suspense, but is giving out a decision already made. Again: Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem. The word translated "krino" here is ordained, which is, again, not a judgment held up in suspension, but is a decision made by the Apostles already decreed. The only sense in which we can say it is a "process of making a judgment" in Rev 20 is in that they are getting their punishments according to the things they did in life, which is being reviewed right then and there before the Throne. They are standing before the great throne, and their whole lives are being examined. Without the blood of the lamb, they cannot have any sins excused, but must be punished for them. Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Naturally none are 'justified' by the works mentioned in the text, but their works will be examined and their punishments will be meted out accordingly, in perfect justice. Though the scripture does not describe any different levels of suffering in the lake of fire, though it is "everlasting" in every case. If Armstrong was lucky, he might be in a spot that burns less hot than others. But, unlikely for a false Apostle. The same word "Krino" is used when speaking of this great judgment in Matthew: Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said (5627) unto them, Verily I say (5719) unto you, That ye which have followed (5660) me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit (5661) in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit (5695) upon twelve thrones, judging (5723) the twelve tribes of Israel. The "judging" there at the end is Krino, and means that we will try (in "court") the "twelve tribes of Israel," whom you said earlier would get to heaven infallibly. Obviously, if they are to get to heaven infallibly, then they must be with the faithful in the first resurrection to avoid standing before the judgment seat in the first place, as there is no escape from having one's sins judged. By the way, all those who do not believe in Christ are "damned" already, using katakrino. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And again, this time using krino, but with the added word "already": Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Using the word katakrino, those who believe in Christ are no longer under any kind of "condemnation": Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. "This isn't a statement about the afterlife. It's a parable that shows how gentiles (the poor)... --------------------------------------------------------------- It's specifically a statement about the after life: Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; After both die, they wake up in their respective places. Lazarus, in Abraham's Bosom (paradise), and the rich man woke up in hell: Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "IF it were a literal description then there a number of descriptions that don't make it an orthodox interpretation." ------------------------------------------------------------------- You're free to actually make an argument. It's better than just making assertions. "Paul said, promised, that ALL of Israel will be saved. You just don't believe it." --------------------------------------------------------------- Just your circular argument again, which was already sorted with the scripture from Daniel and the one in Matthew. As is usual, you only address some of my posts, and ignore all the rest, and what you do address is just assertion. Only the Jews written in the book of life will be saved. Not the ones in hell, or any of the Jews who come under condemnation throughout the scripture, like Judas for instance. "God desires all men to be saved and to know the truth. Yet you would say that this doesn't apply to the billions and billions of people who never knew the truth." ---------------------------------------------------------------- Remember that all these people are already under "condemnation" (katakrino), as previously demonstrated, though you keep ignoring it. If you cannot uncondemn them somehow, then their fate is sealed even before they get to the judgment seat, and all that's left is the "krino" of their works inorder to mete out the specifics of their judgment, assuming there are different degrees of suffering in the lake of fire. Even committing just one sin, actually, puts you under the guilt of them all: Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Furthermore, the context does not support your position: 1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. Paul is speaking of men in all their various stations. Not all men everywhere, otherwise all men would be saved. Not just the Jews in your conception, but the Gentiles too. Obviously, some are indeed created for the purpose of damnation: Pro_16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. And again: Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? "You're making the case that children can (possibly) be saved without actually being a believer. Without professing the name of Christ. This goes against scripture in many ways." ----------------------------------------------------------------- See: http://www.apuritansmind.com/covenant-theology/a-catechism-on-infant-inclusion-in-the-covenant-of-grace-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/
97 posted on 12/25/2013 9:19:16 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: DouglasKC

Oops, previous post got jumbled. Here it is again, fixed:

“Those in the first resurrection were resurrected to spirit life 1000 years before this...there is no need for them to be judged. As noted earlier the actual word here for “judged” doesn’t mean “sentenced”. It means a process of making a judgment. If the conclusion is forgone, that all these people are going to the lake of fire, then there was no reason for Jesus Christ to use that word in the verse. It would have been “katakrino”, not “krino”. BTW you can see the context of both those words in 1 Corinthians 11:32.”


Read Rev 20 again:

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
(Rev 20:11-15)

There is no “gap” period in which these men are released from before the Judges seat and can get a second chance at life, to see if whether or not they can hack it and achieve salvation based on their works. They stand before the judgment seat of Christ, with all the Saints sitting in judgment along with Christ, and they (the judged) are cast into the lake of fire where their torment is forever and ever.

The definition of Krino according to strong’s dictionary also includes the meaning “to make a judgement,” or to “decree” or finalize a punishment. You are only presenting the fantasy definition from the UCB. Observe how it is used in all these examples:

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

The word krino here is translated “determined.” Pilate was not going to “try him” to let him go. He had already decided it. Again:

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

The word “krino” here is translated to “sentence is.” James here is not hanging the audience in suspense, but is giving out a decision already made. Again:

Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

The word translated “krino” here is ordained, which is, again, not a judgment held up in suspension, but is a decision made by the Apostles already decreed.

The only sense in which we can say it is a “process of making a judgment” in Rev 20 is in that they are getting their punishments according to the things they did in life, which is being reviewed right then and there before the Throne. They are standing before the great throne, and their whole lives are being examined. Without the blood of the lamb, they cannot have any sins excused, but must be punished for them.

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Naturally none are ‘justified’ by the works mentioned in the text, but their works will be examined and their punishments will be meted out accordingly, in perfect justice. Though the scripture does not describe any different levels of suffering in the lake of fire, though it is “everlasting” in every case. If Armstrong was lucky, he might be in a spot that burns less hot than others. But, unlikely for a false Apostle.

The same word “Krino” is used when speaking of this great judgment in Matthew:

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said (5627) unto them, Verily I say (5719) unto you, That ye which have followed (5660) me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit (5661) in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit (5695) upon twelve thrones, judging (5723) the twelve tribes of Israel.

The “judging” there at the end is Krino, and means that we will try (in “court”) the “twelve tribes of Israel,” whom you said earlier would get to heaven infallibly. Obviously, if they are to get to heaven infallibly, then they must be with the faithful in the first resurrection to avoid standing before the judgment seat in the first place, as there is no escape from having one’s sins judged.

By the way, all those who do not believe in Christ are “damned” already, using katakrino.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And again, this time using krino, but with the added word “already”:

Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Using the word katakrino, those who believe in Christ are no longer under any kind of “condemnation”:

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

“This isn’t a statement about the afterlife. It’s a parable that shows how gentiles (the poor)...


It’s specifically a statement about the after life:

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

After both die, they wake up in their respective places. Lazarus, in Abraham’s Bosom (paradise), and the rich man woke up in hell:

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

“IF it were a literal description then there a number of descriptions that don’t make it an orthodox interpretation.”


You’re free to actually make an argument. It’s better than just making assertions.

“Paul said, promised, that ALL of Israel will be saved. You just don’t believe it.”


Just your circular argument again, which was already sorted with the scripture from Daniel and the one in Matthew. As is usual, you only address some of my posts, and ignore all the rest, and what you do address is just assertion. Only the Jews written in the book of life will be saved. Not the ones in hell, or any of the Jews who come under condemnation throughout the scripture, like Judas for instance.

“God desires all men to be saved and to know the truth. Yet you would say that this doesn’t apply to the billions and billions of people who never knew the truth.”


Remember that all these people are already under “condemnation” (katakrino), as previously demonstrated, though you keep ignoring it. If you cannot uncondemn them somehow, then their fate is sealed even before they get to the judgment seat, and all that’s left is the “krino” of their works inorder to mete out the specifics of their judgment, assuming there are different degrees of suffering in the lake of fire. Even committing just one sin, actually, puts you under the guilt of them all:

Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Furthermore, the context does not support your position:

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

Paul is speaking of men in all their various stations. Not all men everywhere, otherwise all men would be saved. Not just the Jews in your conception, but the Gentiles too. Obviously, some are indeed created for the purpose of damnation:

Pro_16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

And again:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

“You’re making the case that children can (possibly) be saved without actually being a believer. Without professing the name of Christ. This goes against scripture in many ways.”


See: http://www.apuritansmind.com/covenant-theology/a-catechism-on-infant-inclusion-in-the-covenant-of-grace-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/


98 posted on 12/25/2013 9:19:59 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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