Posted on 11/05/2013 7:03:37 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
The thread that I posted yesterday was lively, energetic and, sadly, punctuated with a little too much Ad Hominem. For instance, and an example - I would never say that any topic is above another person's "pay grade," which was what was tossed at me.
And in the asking, I never received any scripture(s) that show the dividing line - the place that unequivocally shows the total difference - between the one who was never saved & the one who had merely "fallen out of fellowship w/Christ," but was nonetheless still saved.
I was asked why I didn't provide scriptures. Please. I asked a question, and looked for someone to provide an answer - and no scripture was given to show what differentiates between the two - and had asked of me why I posted a thread that provided no scripture. A nice red herring thrown at me.
The thread was hijacked, twisted and taken in a plethora of directions, and thus that one question was never answered...
Again, example: A young man goes down to the altar at church, and is heard giving his life to Christ. The young man then goes on to Bible college, graduates, and becomes a youth pastor. At some point, the youth pastor falls into sin, deep sin, whatever... Half the church says that the youth pastor was never saved, and the other half says that the youth pastor is merely "fallen out of fellowship" with Christ, but is nonetheless still saved.
And perhaps there might actually be a third part - those who don't know one way or the other, and are not shaken in saying that no human being can know which of the two it is. I am in that group.
Telling me that those who are in truly saved won't fall away, but will persevere to the end, and those who fell away were never saved to begin with does not answer the question.
Why start another thread when you have this one
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3087488/posts
still in progress....
I'm sorry that God wasn't specific enough on this point to satisfy you.
There is your problem in its entirety right there.
You threw out a vague question and you not only were not willing to show a valid scriptural reference that demonstrated the concepts you claim to be wrestling with are actually contained in the bible...you then went on to disparage anyone who sought clarification.
It might help you if you stop being a troll.
That's easy--There are tons of the first type--and none of the second.
Once you;ve fallen out of fellowship, you are no longer saved--by definition. And according to Hebrews 6, you cannot come back.
Who can know the heart of man or the mind of God?
Notice that these verses describe someone who falls away must have been "enlightened", "tasted of the heavenly gift", "partakers of the Holy Ghost", "tasted of the good word of God", and tasted of "the powers of the world to come". Unfortunately, most Christians don't meet these qualifications.
Most Christians remain babies that have never grown spiritually. Even in the natural, babies are held to a lower standard of accountability. So, unless someone has had these experiences with God and then falls away, it is still possible for them to repent of the back-sliding and get right with God.
There may be other scriptures that others can add, but these were the first that occurred to me.
A simple, clear interpretation:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html
Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:
One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.
According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.
This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.
Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.
The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.
According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.
The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.
Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine.
I will give it a try as told in the Scriptures by two types of prodigals.
1. Jesus’ parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
This son was always a son - even when he broke fellowship, flagrantly sinned, and ended up in the pig pen. Even in the pig pen, he was still a son. But this son did not stay in the pig pen, but “woke up and smelled the coffee” and came back to his father.
2. Peter’s metaphor of the Prodigal Pig (2 Peter 2:22)
“A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
A pig can be cleaned up and washed and made to look pretty. But a pig still has the nature of a pig - was never a son or daughter - and will return to the pig pen.
So you have this scene of two way traffic.
The prodigal sons (and daughters) who were in the pig pen returning to their father’s house.
The prodigal pigs dwelling in the father’s house (who were never sons or daughters) returning to the pig pen.
I hope you are wrong, otherwise I have no hope.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away... 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
To answer this question, Look carefully at what the Lord Jesus Christ says about it.
1) God the Father, gives people to Christ. These are the Elect.
2) They "Will" come to Him. Not Maybe, not perhaps, but He says they "Will".
3) The Father's 'will' is that the Lord Jesus Christ loses NONE OF THEM. That is, LOSES NOT ONE.
4) If 2) is true then all of these 'will' look to the Son (The Lord Jesus Christ) and believe.
5) And the Lord Jesus Christ, says 'He will', not maybe, not perhaps, but 'will' raise him up on the last day.
As to when they come to faith, some will come early and some will come very late in life. Some will come on their death beds and some will believe almost as young toddlers.
But the point of this verse is that they "will" because God the Father "wills" it, and is the Sovereign of the Universe, draws them irresistibly to Christ (John 6:44, 65).
>> I would never say that any topic is above another person’s “pay grade,”
I would, and I did. It’s not an opinion, it’s not “ad hominem”, it’s a simple fact. Knowing if another is saved IS above your “pay grade” — and mine. Such determination is reserved to Almighty GOD. You are welcome to be offended if you fancy yourself his equal.
>> I never received any scripture(s) that show the dividing line
With last night’s thread as my evidence, I say that you most certainly did. You neither addressed nor discussed the scripture that was given you.
I’m not an expert, but I think you already have your answer “those who don’t know one way or the other, and are not shaken in saying that no human being can know which of the two it is. I am in that group.” I believe its a matter of the heart which is between the individual and God. For God said through Matthew in Chapter 7 in the King James Version, that we are not to judge others or worry about what may be in their eye, but to be mindful of our own spiritual condition (paraphrase). Nevertheless, there can be those times that a brother or sister may need a word of admonishment.
>>Again, example: A young man goes down to the altar at church, and is heard giving his life to Christ. The young man then goes on to Bible college, graduates, and becomes a youth pastor. At some point, the youth pastor falls into sin, deep sin, whatever... Half the church says that the youth pastor was never saved, and the other half says that the youth pastor is merely “fallen out of fellowship” with Christ, but is nonetheless still saved.
The best answer for this can be found in the parable of the Prodigal Son. The young man never stopped being his father’s son, even after he took his inheritance and left. But, he THOUGHT that he had stopped being the man’s son.
He came back and realized that he was never really lost.
But, the unsaid part of the parable is this: If he had NOT come back, he would have died in that foreign land among the pigs. His father would not have welcomed him home only because he CHOSE to never come home. But, the father would have always been looking down the road for him to come back, even though he was dead and it was too late.
Once you are in Christ, you are in. But YOU CAN CHOOSE to distance yourself so much that YOU can’t find him again.
Now, whether God comes and gets you after death when you have chosen to set yourself apart is a mystery. Its a mystery that you test at your own peril.
I see this more as an allusion the Hebrews in the wilderness when they sent in spies who brought back the grapes. They tasted the gift, then backed away and stewed in the desert for forty years.
Same when the Jews saw the miracles of Christ, then later backed away from entering into Christianity.
There was no more sacrifice for sin as the Sacrifice had once been made on the Cross. If they backed away the animal sacrifices were no longer valid.
Is it any wonder that forty years after the Crucifixion, the Temple was destroyed, permanently ending the animal sacrifices?
ShadowAce has neglected to notice to whom the "Letter to the Hebrews" was written. If one simply reads the letter the way it was written, the picture is rather different than his remarks. It is from one very astute Jewish (former) Pharisee, Paul, to the believing Jews (likely congregating in Jerusalem, still). Given this, one should notice that a very important fact about the Mosaic Law is on the table. Paul is referring to those who claim to embrace Jesus as the Messiah and the "fall back" to doing sacrifices at the temple for the remission of sin. He is saying to them, there is no longer any forgiveness in animal sacrifice...it is impossible now that the blood of the Son has been shed.
Those who continue are "close to being cursed". But, this is due to a very Jewish practice that many believing Jews simply could not abandon for fear of public rejection. Paul is arguing, there is no value in public acceptance from darkened Jews who do not know whence cometh their salvation.
The ones Jesus has chosen cannot be lost (John 6). If you find yourself trusting Him for your Rescue, not any activity, value, work you have done, then your "faith" has been granted you by God and you are among the elect.
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Hold the Phone. Be encouraged Brother. Jesus is your hope. He’s the One to go to, not stupid man. Paul said he was the greatest of sinners and at first we think that his close walk with Christ made is “humanness” seem bleak. However, he didn’t say what his sins were. I can state this out of my own experience which is valid to me in my walk. In my 30 years of loving Him, serving Him and seeking Him and to be blessed as He has blessed me, I have fallen out of fellowship. TRUTH: (Job) He allows it to purify His Saints. Not by our strength or our will can we avoid sin, but by His Spirit. Times of testing are upon us all. He will not leave those that are His as orphans. But Grace will allow Him to finish the work He has started in us. Those who knew Him and deliberately and blatantly cut Him off is different than falling into temptation and sinning. His blood covers all transgressions if our heart hopes in Him for cleansing.
Way above my paygrade, but there are at least two options here:
1. The lad was never saved. You can do all of the things that the young man did and have never really been regenerated. See Matthew 7:21-23:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’Note the one thing these individuals are missing is a proclamation of guilt and faith in Jesus. They are appealing to their works.
OR
2. He is a Christian who has fallen into a public sin. He should fall under some level church discipline in the hopes he is restored to fellowship with the local church body. All of us sin, but due to the public scandal of this lad discipline is called for. I am assuming that it is public because everyone in the church knows about it.
I was once a member of a church that had an Elder fall into deep sin. Everyone was shocked. Interestingly that church really never talked about sin. They talked about principles and rules for a successful life.
I later was a member of a church that preached sin quite heavily, and grace even more. An Elder fell into sin and the response of most folk was he needed the grace of our Lord.
IMHO the latter church was far healthier than the first.
was asked why I didn't provide scriptures. Please. I asked a question, and looked for someone to provide an answer - and no scripture was given to show what differentiates between the two - and had asked of me why I posted a thread that provided no scripture. A nice red herring thrown at me.
The thread was hijacked, twisted and taken in a plethora of directions, and thus that one question was never answered...
I went and read up on the first thread. Your premise and the answers you seek are ambiguous in a contextual sense. All humans are going to struggle with an answer. To make it tougher for the faithful that would like to help you with this deeply spiritual and personal dilemma, you are asking folks to make positive statements without reference to scripture. The problem is, and I suspect the root of your frustration, we are all human. No mortal person is going to give you an absolute answer that will satisfy you without a logical and convincing progression that includes some scripture as guidance.
I suspect that this confounding spiritual situation you seek to resolve is born of some conflict you find in your faith. That is, a soul is conflicted. This is a human condition. My faith is a journey. And my life is littered with sin along that journey. I have repented and have no heavy conscience at this time. I am ever improving and evolving in my relationship with God. Others stated, "only you will know" or "You can't possibly know until the day of reckoning." I think both are true. It is YOUR faith.
Consider the past in which convicted mafia members claimed to be believe in God, respect the Sabbath, understand sin and willfully committed mortal sins. Some would say they cannot "be saved". Others would claim they could, if they TRULY repented and reconciled those sins with God.
In all things its a matter of faith. You know what's right and wrong based on your own understanding and your relationship with God. The question is, are your truly sorry for your sin and do you truly intend to reject sin going forward. I suspect, that is the root of your dilemma. For example, Adultery is the hardest for some. You know its a sin. The evil rots the soul. The carnal pleasure is overwhelmingly tempting. Many succumb to the temptation, repeatedly, with full knowledge of their sinful ways. They also know they must be TRULY sorry for what they have done against God to be forgiven. But they aren't, exactly because they are conflicted with the human and carnal pleasure Vs. their spiritual wishes.
My recommendation... Go to your place of worship. Kneel in focused prayer until your heart accepts God's answer. Then follow that direction. I believe, God has already given you an answer. But your heart is still hardened to the truth, and you are looking for another answer. FReepers are not likely to give better answers than God. A soul is at stake here. You are going to have to work at it. ;o/
I will say a prayer for you in the mean time. ;o)
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