Posted on 08/01/2013 8:41:18 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.(Revelation 14:9-11)
This generation has a hard time accepting the long-standing Christian doctrine of the certainty of Hell, eternal punishment and the wrath of God. How could it be that simply for sinning, or unbelief, that one would have to suffer in the lake of fire for eternity? Doesn’t that seem extreme?
As I suggest in the title, they just don’t “get” hell, and as a consequence, in many formerly evangelical churches,by and large the doctrine is being jettisoned, as if it is an outdated ‘relic’ from the harsh,judgmental past.
One very important reason for this defection from orthodoxy, has to do with the lowered standard of preaching in the churches. All too often, particularly lacking is the exposition of the doctrine of God; his Glory, Majesty, attributes and perfections.
There have never been so many christian churches, teachings, books,seminars or conferences, but rarely do these sermons hold forth the doctrine of God. The vision of “the only true God”, is all but gone for too many christians, therefore it is difficult to believe in Hell and even to perceive the necessity of the cross.
The most important aspect to any person’s character is how they see God. This is the determining factor in every other area of life, it controls how they relate to others, how they live in marriage, business, family, how they parent, everything revolves around how one sees God. (This is true of everybody, even ‘Atheists’). All personal problems are theological in nature.
In order to believe in Hell and judgment, as Jesus, and the apostles described it, one must believe that there is a Divine person,GOD, who is so exalted, so high and lifted up, so Holy and awesome, that to reject and to spurn him, is to spurn goodness itself! Could there be anyone so “high and lifted up”?
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.(Isaiah 6:1-5)
The issue of sin and damnation isn’t so much a matter of what we actually did to deserve hell, rather it is more a matter of who we did it against, who we rebelled against, spurned, rejected, and disowned!
David, the adulterer, murderer and national stumbling block, confessed to the God whom he had grieved, ,“Against You, You only have I sinned and done this evil in thy sight…”(Psalm 51)
When we are given some sense of God in his majesty, Holiness and goodness, it becomes easier for us to believe in an ultimate banishment from all that is pleasant and good as the just judgment of those who reject God.
We are told by eyewitnesses to the Lewis revival of the 1950′s, that when the LORD Sovereignly revealed himself to teenagers at a dance, they fell on their faces and many separately confessed, “Hell would be too good for me O LORD….for I have seen you…have mercy upon me a sinner!”
Similarly, the suffering and agony of the cross of Jesus is difficult for this generation to grasp. There are new teachings, denying the wrath of God as being somehow beneath an “All loving God”. Worse yet there are those who reject the doctrine of propitiation, that is that Jesus died as a satisfaction for our sins.
They simply do not see that sin is “that bad”.Nor does this egalitarian generation believe that anyone at all is above them, let alone that God is “That awesome”; so high and lifted up, that it took nothing less than the suffering, agony and rejection of the man who is “The Lord from heaven”, to save us from eternal damnation.
But we behold in the cross of Jesus the awful holiness and righteousness of God, as well as His mercy and compassion. We shudder at the sight of the crucified Messiah, fixed between heaven and earth, and in trembling awe we ask ourselves,”Is this what it took to redeem us” ?
If they could but get a glimpse of who God is, perhaps this generation would be able once again to see the eternal danger they are in, and flee the wrath to come. Is this what the Proverbs taught us when Wisdom said,
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and,b> the knowledge of the holy is understanding.(Proverbs 9:10) ?
Oh for that understanding to be poured out on this erring generation!
A god of goodness, a god of evil, and all their minions, angels and devils flittering about, seems perhaps like Hinduism, but not like monotheism to me.
I believe it's more literal...They now have the technology and power to literally make this happen...
I've read the “Left Behind” series, for example, and Salem Kirban’s books. Although I think there is a beast and a false prophet, etc., there are numerous incidents, and theological points that I disputed when reading them. It's been a while, so don't ask me to regurgitate them right now.
Revelation is presented as a vision (Rev 1:2), so allegorical and metaphorical elements are to be expected, although I believe they predict actual events.
The trick, to my mind, is to distinguish what is to be taken literally, and what is a metaphor for some literal event or person.
The greater trick is to determine how what you read can help you become a better Christian. I think a lot of sincere Christians may fall a bit short on this point.
Therefore, while I have definite views on the book, I also have many questions. I am not at all dogmatic about it.
There are only 2 things that I am dogmatic about: 1) without Christ as your personal Saviour, you are lost and going to a literal Hell, and 2) Jesus is coming again to judge the nations.
Every thing else is details on which I may well be mistaken. In fact #2 is secondary to #1. which is the only thing that really matters.
Revelation is full of prophetic language from the Old Testament, and IMO the phrase is a prophetic metaphor meant to invoke the language of Deuteronomy 11:18-19:
“You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.The verse in Revelation IMO is meant to refer to how an entire generation has learned to think (the "mark on the forehead") and act (the "mark on the hand"). My view is that in the Tribulation, it will be impossible for anyone to do business without thinking and acting like an unbeliever, because that entire generation (and probably those that preceded it) will not have been instructed by their parents in Biblical morals and guidelines for conducting business (i.e. in violation of the command in Deuteronomy).
You shall teach them to your children, talking of them when you are sitting in your house, and when you are walking by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
Could be...
He’s gone now. Anti-God posters have a very short life expectancy.
You aren't kidding about that. We're in a very, very dark place and most haven't a clue.
When i read some of their antagonistic in-credible interpretations of Scripture, i know the devil is at work.
The interesting thing about this position is that if you can't seem to see your way thru to taking something literally, You are still faced with figuring out what it alludes to or what it is a metaphor of...
Many people fall into this trend and when claiming metaphor or allegory, they then drop the issue as unimportant...We should by 'searching the scriptures' be able to figure out what those allegories allude to...
All thru out history, the means has been there to mark or brand a person with the Mark of the Beast and has always been relevant as the bible describes it...
A while back, I heard a caller to a Christian radio show make the following statement:
“God can’t send me to hell. I’m an American.” I almost wrecked my car, I was laughing so hard.
Ah, that was sorta what I was trying to say. You expressed it much better than I.
Doesn’t mean I agree, or disagree. As I said, I threw it out as a question.
Thanks for the reply.
At best you are using some commonalities at the expense of their distinctions. And what is your defining source on what monotheism is?
I expressed earlier that you need the lower, more obvious, i.e., literal meanings figured out before you go for higher, metaphorical meanings, or you will come a cropper theologically, in my opinion.
This one anyway, though otherwise i was hoping for a reasonable exchange.
This is the hole in any Humanistic argument - their defining source authority is either their own opinion or the opinion of some other human, and is no better of an authority than any other opposing opinion.
And if they refer to some collective opinion, well, those change with time as well, so who's to say which is "right"?
OK...I get it... :)
I believe you will find agnostics on Free Republic and true atheists - ones who do not believe but are not on a mission to destroy belief (anti-God activists.)
Maybe pastorbill would define what he means by “hell” since he states that the modern generation doesn’t understand or “get” hell.
If we would have this generation understand we must be clear, accurate and truthful about what is being taught. It appeared that that you were treating “hell” and the “lake of fire” as one and the same.
The Scriptures do not do this.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.