Posted on 07/22/2013 6:38:29 AM PDT by Gamecock
If you’ve never had the pleasure of eating an In-N-Out Burger, you are missing out on one of the little, artery clogging, pleasures of life.
As for the name, it’s about as basic and simple as you could get. You come in, get your burger, and go out. Fast, easy, and well.. tasty.
Inside of you is hunger, outside of you are tasty burgers for your enjoyment. You go there, get one, and satisfy your hunger. There are no burgers inside of me, so I go out, where there are burgers. Simple. Not exactly deep theology here.. right?
Can you imagine the absurdity and utter confusion of getting that basic premise wrong?
Would it be absurd? Would it be mocked? You would think so, but I recently saw this obvious error applauded and treated as if it was the deepest, most philosophical, life-changing truth imaginable by no lesser names than media mogul Oprah Winfrey and “christian” Pastor Joel Osteen.
Before you think I unfairly listed Osteen as “christian” (in quotes), let’s watch his latest appearance on Oprah’s “Lifeclass.”
Did you catch the quote?
“You’ll never rise any higher than you see yourself.” – Joel Osteen
Hmm. So, how high I rise (externally/out) is based upon me (internal/in) and how I see myself (internal/in).
So the answer to the external is from within.. how I view myself, and as he states later, what words I speak about myself.
You’ve got to see this … Joel Osteen’s view, his teaching in the role of “Pastor” is that the external is determined by the internal (You, your view, your mindset, and your words).
Sounds good, and boy, does it sell. Oprah has built a multi-billion dollar media empire. Joel Osteen “Pastors” the largest church in the United States, it’s also helped sell books like “The Secret” and spin up careers of Oprah’s other Lifeclass speakers. But what does scripture say? Is THIS the message of Christianity, that the internal controls the external? That it’s IN that controls OUT?
The written word of God, inspired by God the Holy Spirit is clear.. it’s not the SOLUTION that’s in us, it’s the PROBLEM!
(I’m going to intentionally quote a LOT of scripture this week. I want the sheer weight and volume of scripture which speaks to this core issue to blow you away. While Joel Osteen doesn’t quote a single verse, here is a mere sampling of God’s word on the issue. Read them all now, or later, but they’re here for your reference.)
1. Men are born in sin:
2. As all men have sinned, they are slaves to sin:
3. The heart of sin is UNABLE and UNWILLING to do good. It is, in fact, HOSTILE to God:
So, if we are born in sin, slaves to sin and hostile to God, unable to do good works… is the heart a good place to be looking?
Yes, for those in Christ, He has changed their heart of stone into a heart of flesh. But.. where does that come from? IN or OUT?
Our righteousness? OUT! It is an external (or what some call “alien”) righteousness. Our only hope in life and death is the external/OUT righteousness of Christ!
“The first is alien righteousness, that is the righteousness of another, instilled from without. This is the righteousness of Christ by which he justifies though faith, as it is written in I Cor. 1:30: “whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.” In John 11:25-26, Christ himself states: “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me…..shall never die.” Later he adds in John 14:6, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.” This righteousness, then, is given to men in baptism and whenever they are truly repentant. Therefore a man can with confidence boast in Christ and say: “Mine are Christ’s living, doing, and speaking, his suffering and dying, mine as much as if I had lived, done, spoken, suffered, and died as he did.” Just as a bridegroom possesses all that is his bride’s and she all that is his—for the two have all things in common because they are one flesh[Gen. 2:24]—so Christ and the church are one spirit [Eph. 5:29-32]. Thus the blessed God and Father of mercies has, according to Peter, granted to us very great and precious gifts in Christ [II Pet. 1:4]. Paul writes in II Cor. 1:3; “Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.”
- Martin Luther
So, do you see the completely backward message of Joel Osteen? Not only is it not biblical (Did you hear a single mention of Jesus, or a single passage of scripture in his dicussion?) it’s the polar OPPOSITE of biblical Christianity. And he’s telling unregenerate sinners (who the bible says are slaves to sin and UNABLE to please God) that they are blessed and victorious? That’s not just incorrect, it’s rank heresy. He’s speaking peace and victory to people who in their unregenerate state are destined for hell. Smiley face and sweet voice or not.. that’s the cruelest act I can think of a man committing, and to do it while presenting himself as a “Pastor”? God have mercy!
False teacher much?
So, the takeaway here is this: Get the In-N-Out right, your only hope is OUT, through the external/alien righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith in Him for the forgiveness of sins.
Tongues are not a sign for believers but for unbelievers.
1 Corinthians 14:22 22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.
Nor do I see a huge rush to interpret as Paul said must happen when tongues is exercised.
Nor do I see people seeking to prophesy.
No, everyone is after the experience of speaking in tongues, even to the point of telling people to makes sounds to loosen up and have the gift come on them.
Experience junkies is it.
I had forgotten about I Corinthians 14:22. I’m trying to teach a young man who obtains much of his theology from Jimmy Swaggart Ministry videos. We’ve made some progress, but this reminder will help.
Seems that a LOT of people forget about chapter 14.
1 Corinthians 12 is good, too.
Especially verses 7 and 11 and 27 - 31.
The verses in Mark 16:17-18 are what I’ve been focusing on lately. Still waiting for someone to drink that cup of bleach. What’s funny is that I’d been through I Cor. 12-14 with him not too long ago. Some things he heard and some didn’t get through. Problem is, this young man bought the Jimmy Swaggart ‘power’ bible with all kinds of foot notes and misinterpretation.
It’s funny how many people cherry pick verses out or Mark 16 to support their theology and ignore the rest.
Catholics do it as a proof text that water baptism is necessary for salvation but ignore the rest of the passage.
Pentecostals use it as a proof text for speaking in tongues, casting out demons, and laying hands on others for healing, but don’t practice the snake handling or drinking poison or use it so support water baptism.
People need to show some integrity when using Scripture. Either the whole passage applies or it doesn’t. You can’t pick and choose what you like about what Jesus says and discard the rest.
Amen - a little context goes a long way.
that makes no sense
Christianity is not about motivation.
being a motivational speaker is not benchmark as a pastor
Pastors are light bearers
Paul experienced this supernatural protection from a viper when he was shipwrecked on the island of Melita (Acts 28:3-5). However, this is the only recorded example of this in the New Testament. There is no record of the disciples picking up snakes just to prove they were believers. That would be tempting God (Luke 4:9-12).
This, as well as drinking any deadly thing, is a promise that if we pick up snakes accidentally or are forced into that position because of our stand for Christ, we can believe for supernatural protection.
Like taking up serpents, this does not mean that we can tempt God by drinking poison just to see if this promise works.
Not so. There are two different kinds of speaking in tongues. 1 Corinthians 13:1 says we can speak with the tongues of man or of angels.
The tongues of men is speaking of known languages such as what took place on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4-6). This is the gift to supernaturally speak a known language without having been taught it, and it comes for the purpose of witnessing, as on the Day of Pentecost.
There is also a gift of tongues that is speaking in a heavenly language (what 1 Corinthians 13:1 calls the tongues of angels). This is a language that is not known to the speaker (1 Corinthians 14:2 and 14) but allows the believer to communicate directly with the Lord through the Spirit. There is another kind of speaking in tongues that equals prophecy if it is interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:5).
Not every believer will speak in known languages, as on the Day of Pentecost, or prophesy in the assembly through a message in tongues and an interpretation (1 Corinthians 12:30), but every believer who receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost can speak in the tongues that are for the purpose of edification (1 Corinthians 14:4).
"He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the church. I would that you all spoke with tongues but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 6ow, brothers, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?"
It's a bit of self righteousness to say they don't need a sign, it's that GOD GIVES a sign. They don't have to receive what He gives. IT doesn't mean they aren't saved. Speaking in tongues is still a supernatural gift to every believer who will receive it.
And, of course every believer is baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is just the fringe groups of believers who think this is the repetitious chanting they claim.
My group and tradition? LOL That's OK, not everyone is able to discern God's Word and freely admit it. So they say it's 'another's tradition'.
the Charismatic perspective
All your 'titles and categories' to leave you feeling satisfy doesn't mean squat in the end. You just remain the same with no growth.
every believer is baptized in the Holy Spirit.
You believe that? It's must be your tradition speaking.
it is just the fringe groups of believers who think this is the repetitious chanting they claim.
Repetitious chanting? Are you privy to what believers do in private? What you call chanting I'll take as another slur of 'a title' needed to feel justified. Thankfully, Paul instructed believers while others cannot discern what he is saying. It's no biggie, but expected considering 'the churched' today - weak with no power as they don't 'feel the need' to be edified.
I agree.
Again, the experience junkies at work. Power? Try the power of the precious blood of the Lamb provided by God, Jesus the Messiah, who rescues broken sinners from themselves...that is power, my FRiend. And, it is all the power I will ever need. Keep your butterflies in the stomach, the ethereal floating of the heart, the "slain in the Spirit", the "feeling the presence of the Lord." It is all in your flesh.
And with respect to every believer being baptized into the Holy Spirit, you wrote...
"You believe that? It's must be your tradition speaking."
Tradition? Well, from the letter you use often, I Cor., comes this passage..."For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all MADE to drink of one Spirit." Tradition? Well, if you consider the words of Paul my tradition, I will gladly wear that.
The Charismatic/Pentecostal movement however...
Some reject it as they don't feel the need for it.
You brought up tradition when I posted Scripture. So I'll mark your post as hypocritical.
And ANYONE who says that Paul was exaggerating when speaking about tongues of angels - clearly shows they have no knowledge of Scripture despite it being posted and do not WANT the knowledge. I could post Scripture about those who deny the power - power that PAUL had and overflowed in it. But to know-it-alls, they can stay weak and impressed with themselves.
Ephesians 3:14-19 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Nothing about the kind of power the charismatic movement goes after.
Tongues are a sign for unbelievers, not believers. They are for the edification of the body, as are all the gifts, not the individual.
Funny how I don't hear about people chasing after the gifts listed in Romans 12, prophecy, teaching, exhortation, service, leading, mercy, etc....
No, everyone is chasing after what Paul considers the least of the gifts. And for what?
You're making quite an assumption there and it's clear it's directed towards dutchboy. And I say that as an observer so nobody can claim that he's projecting or whatever.
Even if there is an angelic language, it doesn't automatically go to follow that anyone or everyone else who speaks in tongues is speaking THAT language.
That the idea that it's a prayer language is unsupported by Scripture as well.
Even though Jesus died for ALL, it doesn't automatically follow that everyone receives salvation. So your point is mute. And there IS an angelic language, not 'IF'. But tell us what language is it - if it is not THAT language. Being critical is sometimes the only defense some have. IMO, it is NONE of anyone's business what others speak OR not speak. I suppose they believe 'chatter' reigns over 'chanting'.
God's Word tells us how GOD designed things to be and if we follow it we get the outcome of His Will for us. So where man falls has nothing to do with 'what is in the supernatural'.
Paul said he spoke in tongues more than the rest and taught us all about it. Now if some think Paul is exaggerating, that is their problem and will not have the tongue of angels nor accomplish what he did. No one can have what they rebuke in Scripture and according to them no one else can have it either and then put them 'into a group' to satisfy their lack.
God's Word is to be believed and if we don't have what God says He has given us, then we are at fault, not God. He tells us 'my people suffer for a lack of knowledge'. And jealously has no place in His Kingdom as God has given us the power through the Holy Spirit and if we don't have it OR use that power, we don't get what He promised. This is where faith needs action not chatter.
That the idea that it's a prayer language is unsupported by Scripture as well.
Really? Then edification is not for you. And what Paul did is not for you. You are not obligated to receive the Gift of the HS as speaking in tongues is a gift of the HS discussed in 1 Corinthians 12-14.
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son on the altar?"
It didn't matter what God said, Abraham didn't question or look around to see if anyone else was doing it - he stepped out on a mustard seed of faith and obeyed God - KNOWING the God he believes in.
Gee if he was a believer today he'd probably be expected to ask 10 people to pray for him and have a chain mail going to make sure He was doing the right thing. And another 'group' would be mocking him and spreading rumors that he plans to kill his child or whatever.
But that is what the faith of God looks like and the faith that receives.
Some reject it as they don't feel they need for it. And you think that is an assumption? Are you saying that there is no one who believes 'it is not necessary for them to have a sign that Jesus speaks of?'
It's not looking for a sign - it is a SIGN God gives. Rebuking what God gives is a 'sign' they won't be privy to what God wants to give them for His Will to be accomplished. Yet, they cry foul when someone does receive from God. And then they are put into a 'group' by the have-nots.
I'll follow Abraham and Paul's lead and let you and the rest assume your position as an 'observer and critic'.
Is there any record in Scripture of angels speaking and men not understanding them?
Where, aside from the one comment of Paul, is there even any allusion to the concept that an angel might speak a language other than that which man speaks.
1 Corinthians 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
1 Corinthians 14:18-19 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
1 Corinthians 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
And yet, here we have in America, people in churches in droves seeking tongues. Why seek the least of the gifts, contrary to clear teaching of Scripture?
Baloney people aren't looking for a sign. It's preached from pulpits all over the US that tongues is the evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit and people ARE looking for it. Calling it *evidence* is calling a rose by any other name.
So, does your church forbid women to speak in it, as the end of 1 Corinthians 14 says? You know, the passage tucked in the part on tongues?
1 Corinthians 14:40 But all things should be done decently and in order.
A far cry from what goes on in most Pentecostal churches that I've been in. It's usually chaos.
Really? Seems like you are preparing to become someone's Savior. You don't have that power - It's HIS POWER for our benefit.
The HOLY SPIRIT is The POWER and used for the PURPOSE OF HIS WILL ALONE!
Only born again believers who receive it have the same POWER within that raised Jesus from the dead.
"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Romans 8:9
FRiend, I highlighted it 'just for you' because of the benefit of the doubt, you may be teachable.
Tells us, what other power is there? And tell us what kind of power do they go after?
Because MY God gives His power, I didn't have to go after it. I guess He just likes me.
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