Posted on 07/19/2013 5:39:12 AM PDT by fatima
It’s easy to say, lord, lord. Harder to live as He would have us do.
I know you Catholics think someone can lose his salvation, while as Baptists we believe that one who rebels against God was never saved in the first place.
This may be a question of semantics, and I will admit that while I profess “once saved, always saved”, I am somewhat ambiguous about it. I could be wrong, but as it is not a doctrine essential for salvation, I don’t worry about it too much.
Still, it has nothing to do with the existence, or non-existence, of Purgatory.
Yes, god's standard is perfection, but nobody can attain that. Once someone sins ONE sin, they are a Lawbreaker and the penalty of death is on them.
There is no amount of good works that can erase that. Even if someone lived an otherwise sinless life, that one sin is still enough to condemn them.
Sin taints and corrupts our being. NOTHING we can do is free from the taint of sin, which is why our works are as filthy rags in the sight of God.
That is why they are not enough to earn salvation. And even if they were, there's still that issue of that one sin. Without the shedding of blood, there is NO remission of sins.
Works can't do it because works are not a payment for sin.
Penance can't do it because penance is not a payment for sin.
Baptism can't do it because baptism is not a payment for sin.
Suffering in purgatory can't do it because suffering is not a payment for sin.
Only death, the shedding of blood, can pay for sins.
John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Ephesians 2:1-10And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
The Catholics who allow praying to saints don’t consider them to be dead, because they believe that they have been resurrected to eternal life. As for family members, or other cultures honoring ancestors, those issues are immaterial as to whether it is sinful or not.
Asking the saints to pray for us is not part of it.
How would that make light of the verse from Revelation? Was Maccabees ever included as part of the “scroll of prophecy” that was delivered to John which we know as Revelation?
Peter is not referring to water baptism. The verse in its entirely says 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience,
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- it's never faith ALONE. Note that.
James also says...James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
Same author, same book, same chapter.
Explain the apparent contradiction.
So, do listen to the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject
The problem happens when one takes one section of the word in isolation.
That's right. One ends up speaking out of both sides of their mouth.
If it's grace, it's not works. If it's works, it's not grace.
Necromancy.
Why waste your time conversing with demons?
Jesus tells us to pray to the Father, who hears us and answers us.
The time you're praying to *saints* (demons) you are NOT spending talking with the Father.
Necromancy = Beating the dead horse of long discredited anti-Catholic talking points.
Neither. Just tossing it back at folks who use the preceeding verse to argue against the inclusion.
Salvation is not by faith alone -- JESUS Himself said so --> What does Jesus say saves us?
| 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. |
Jesus said it is not faith ALONE. We are saved by God's GRACE. Full-stop.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- it's never faith ALONE. Note that
no one is denying that one MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE. As shown above, Jesus Himself said that
He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
[U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3
[H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)
So, do listen to the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject
The problem happens when one takes one section of the word in isolation.
Incorrect. John 3:5
| 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. |
Water as a medium with the Spirit is clearly indicated -- water as a medium of life and, in the case of the flood of death. Passing through the waters of the Red Sea, the Israelites came through, with the help of the Spirit, to a new life a new journey
You can read it right at the start of Genesis: the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
| 16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. |
| 34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. |
1 Jn 5:6-8
| 6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. |
From then on, it is possible "to be born of water and the Spirit" Jn 3:5
| 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. |
in order to enter the Kingdom of God.
| 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. |
by water through the Word.
Do NOT limit Christ by saying one is saved by faith ALONE. He never said that. do listen to the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject
The problem happens when one takes one section of the word in isolation.
Actually it WAS in the Hebrew scriptures, that is why the Apocrypha is quoted in the New Testament. Remember that the Hebrew Scriptures that Jesus used, dates from 200 BC, while the Jewish canon our Jewish brethren refer to today is from the council of Jamnia dating to 90 AD where they expunged all traces that predicted Jesus as a messiah.
For some reason, I believe that when we pray for souls gone, it gives them a brief relief of their suffering in purgatory. I will always believe that, don’t know where the idea came from...
HE clearly said: Luke 12:58-59 58 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled on the way, or your adversary may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison.
59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”
-- the prison of hell you cannot get out of, and heaven is no prison, so Christ refers to what? think, chesley, think.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.