Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?

catholic-convert ^ | July 11, 2012 | Steve Ray

[NYer]

Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?

A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…

Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints can’t do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!

Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?

An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, “Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the “dead in Christ” are those saints who have physically died. “For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess 4:16).

THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE “JESUS ALONE” DOCTRINE. From some people’s point of view, people who have died are classified as “dead saints,” who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people don’t want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, “JESUS ALONE” fails. If the so-called “dead saints” do anything then it is not “JESUS ALONE,” but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called “dead saints” are in fact not dead, but alive with God.

Dead or in paradise?

HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly “dead saints” who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no “dead saint” because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants

HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying “Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead” in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says “Jesus is the god of the living.” However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; “He is not God of the dead but of the living.”

• “God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mk 12: 26-27).

Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as “dead saints.”

Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?

WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than “dead saints” who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? “And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called “dead saints;” not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.

SORRY LEONARD…YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, “As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument.” He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, “For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun” (Eccles 9:6).

When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the person’s soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?

How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?

Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). “Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet” (Kings 13:20-21).

Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It can’t be much clearer than that!

The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ

JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE “DEAD SAINTS.” Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.

“Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?

This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that “dead saints” can’t do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.

So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“That certainly is evidence that praying to departed saints was added hundreds of years later.” "So was the trinity. ......................... You just perfectly argued the cult of mormonism! Evidence of the Trinity was NOT ADDED hundreds of years earlier. The Church and the Bible have always revealed and taught our Triune God. The Church Councils were convened because of attacks of false doctrine that had to be clarified once for all. Praying to Departed Saints was never taught until hundreds of years later.

[Elsie]

Deuteronomy 13 says otherwise.

Uh...

not quite.

---

Houston; we have a problem!

Genesis says "let US make man in OUR image..." does it not?

The 'trinity' does NOT introduce any NEW god or gods, but merely explains a bit of the US and OUR words...

---

Deuteronomy 13

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

² And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

³ Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

⁴ Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

⁵ And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

⁶ If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve  other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

⁷ Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

⁸ Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

⁹ But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

¹⁰ And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

¹¹ And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

¹² If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the Lord thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

¹³ Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

¹⁴ Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

¹⁵ Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

¹⁶ And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the Lord thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

¹⁷ And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

¹⁸ When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God.

[Alex Murphy]

Uh...not quite....

....Genesis says "let US make man in OUR image..." does it not? The 'trinity' does NOT introduce any NEW god or gods, but merely explains a bit of the US and OUR words...

You're making my point for me.

[CynicalBear]

>> So...Cynical...go ahead & be cynical...but your tone toward Catholics on this particular matter needs a bit more humility...asking the question in a manner that assumes topical "MIA" status from the Bible...yet only serves to reveal your own Biblical ignorance instead.<<

That was a nice try Colofornian but there’s several errors in your attempt to correct me. First of all my question was “So show me from scripture where those who passed from this life after Christ’s resurrection have an active role in what goes on here on earth.” The verse from Revelation does not show that they are in any way active in what is going on here one earth. They are active in what is going on in heaven. Read the passage again. They aren’t carrying any prayers from anyone one earth. They are asking when God will avenge their deaths. They are told to wait until “the full number” of those who will be killed during the Tribulation have been. Surely you don’t equate their request for vengeance to what the Catholics refer to as saints do you?

Second problem with your attempt is that those saints are Tribulation saints. Those that were killed for not taking the number of the beast during the Tribulation. The church, the body of Christ, has long left the earth by that point and are already in their white robes.

So please don’t accuse me of ignorance when the verse you used clearly does not answer the question I asked.

[count-your-change]

I’m sorry if I missed your reply as I’ve been away from the office for a while. Did I miss it? Or is it the question?

[CynicalBear]

>> So what you are saying is that you believe that the dead do not know anything,<<

I am saying? And you tell me I need to “study those texts just a wee bit more”? Let’s look at what the scripture (note: scripture, not me) says.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Did you really think that I wrote that portion of scripture? I don’t remember even making a comment on that verse. I simply posted the verse.

[CynicalBear]

>>You said you rejected Nicaea. That, makes you not a Christian.<<

How telling. Real Christians know that it’s rejecting Christ that makes one not a Christian.

[CynicalBear]

>>One who is willing to reject the Trinity has greater issues than the authority of scripture.<<

You still haven’t shown who rejects the Trinity. Your injecting meaning into what someone else believes is getting a little tedious.

[Colofornian]

The verse from Revelation does not show that they are in any way active in what is going on here one earth. They are active in what is going on in heaven. Read the passage again. They aren’t carrying any prayers from anyone one earth. They are asking when God will avenge their deaths.

And the event locale of their deaths occurred where? (On earth)

So where do you get from that no "active role in what goes on here on earth"???

(a) They were "active" in lobbying our Lord in heaven;
(b) And the point of their discussion was exactly what went on upon earth -- the event locales of those deaths; and for at least some of those victims, their murderers at the time of their lobbying may still (have been walking) on Planet Earth @ the time of their petition unto the Lord.

Second problem with your attempt is that those saints are Tribulation saints. Those that were killed for not taking the number of the beast during the Tribulation. The church, the body of Christ, has long left the earth by that point and are already in their white robes.

You are simply downright pathetic in your open ignorance of what is plainly already in the context of that which I cited...

And since I cited to you these same very verses in my last post to you, you are doubly without excuse for such willful ignorance!

But I will cite them again! And this time I will both all-cap and bold face the crucial portion which plain-as-day contradicts your claim:

Revelation 6: 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, AND THEY WERE TOLD TO WAIT A LITTLE LONGER, UNTIL THE FULL NUMBER OF THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS, THEIR BROTHERS AND SISTERS, WERE KILLED JUST AS THEY HAD BEEN.

At the point of these departed saints' petition, how could your claim of: "The church, the body of Christ, has long left the earth by that point and are already in their white robes" be true if the "full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters," had YET to be "killed just as they had been" (Rev. 6:11)

Why did you, and do you, ignore plain-as-day what Rev. 6:11 says?

The very answer they are given 100% contradicts your claim that the Body of Christ had long left the earth!

ALL: Here's a lesson for you...when Johnny-come-lately dispensationalists come on the scene and teach their "tribulation" theology that the early pre-Roman church NEVER taught...and then they have to ignore verses like Rev. 6:11...'cause it doesn't match what their pet tribulation theology teacher has taught them!

[editor-surveyor]

I don’t see anyone ‘rejecting’ the trinity, just not exaggerating the importance of another man made word.

This is an imaginary issue, just like the ‘mother of God’ and ‘sinless’ Mary nonsense.

[editor-surveyor]

Their “active lobbying” is without effect.

Nothing will nor should change Yehova’s plan.

As for any saints having left the Earth, the word says “at the last trump” and “After the tribulation of those days,” so let’s not get ahead of Yehova. The “First Resurrection” will definitely be at Yom Teruah, not before.

Those that have not studied the feasts in depth are simply not equipped to understand any prophecy of any kind. They describe a perfect time table for all of the events from the rededication of the altar onward.

[CynicalBear]

Again, nice try but you really need to work on reading comprehension. You said that they were also concerned with those on earth. How do you know that? Their question to God was “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” They had to be told there were others that were to be killed before they were avenged. Active on earth? They would have known that the time was not yet had they known what was happening on earth.

>>Why did you, and do you, ignore plain-as-day what Rev. 6:11 says?<<

I would suggest I see what it says much clearer than you do as evidenced by the lack of understanding you show by not seeing that they were only asking to avenge only their blood.

>>The very answer they are given 100% contradicts your claim that the Body of Christ had long left the earth!<<

The church is not on this earth during the Tribulation. The Tribulation is the wrath of God. Can you show me where God ever allowed those faithful to Him to experience His wrath?

>>that the early pre-Roman church NEVER taught<<

It was prophesied by Daniel and taught by the apostles.

>>You are simply downright pathetic in your open ignorance of what is plainly already in the context of that which I cited... <<

And I thought you were so concerned with “tone”? Pfffft.

[Colofornian]

You said that they were also CONCERN WITH THOSE ON EARTH. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? THEIR QUESTION TO GOD WAS “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, UNTIL YOU JUDGE THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH and avenge our blood?” [I highlighted the above to clearly contrast the very Q CB asks]

Are you for real? You ask a question answered by verse 10 of Rev. 6, and then you cite Rev. 6:10 that answers that very question?

If those "inhabitants of the earth" were of no concern to them, why did they petition God about THEM?

And if they weren't "inhabitants of the earth" as v. 10 says they were, where were they from? Kolob? Mars? Distant-galaxy space creatures?

[Colofornian]

Their “active lobbying” is without effect.

So what?

Being all-star night, perhaps you could tell us what your prayer "batting average" is?

Or mine for that matter...How many prayer petitions have you & I collectively uttered to God, where He's effectively responded: "Sorry. Rejected. Fruitless prayer. I'm going to stick to MY plan because it's perfect." (????)

Ineffectual petitions doesn't mean God squashes them, right?

[CynicalBear]

Dear Colofornian, their concern was only in avenging their own deaths. Of course they realized how they had died. My point was that they indicated no knowledge of what was going on at that present time or any concern for anyone other than vengeance for their own deaths. The original context was praying for help from those who have passed from this life. You cited the passage in Revelation in an attempt to convince me that those humans who had left this earth could hear prayers and affect anything on earth. The passage does not show they can. Your going down a rabbit hole trying not to be wrong in using that passage to answer my initial question. It’s not working. And getting snarky in your last two posts to me especially isn’t showing me how to I should have “more humility”.

[Colofornian]

ALL: Be careful in dealing with this poster...mind-boggling responses:

Departed saints ask, "How long until you judge...inhabitants of the earth?" (Rev. 6:10)

CynicalBear asks how do we know these departed saints "were also concerned with those on earth?"

Ummm...maybe the word "Earth" provided a hefty clue???

[Hmmm...I guess this is just too overwhelming for some to take at face value, eh?]

Departed saints, in response to their petition in heaven, are told to "wait a little longer." Why? Because "THE FULL NUMBER OF THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS, THEIR BROTHERS AND SISTERS" had not YET been "KILLED JUST AS THEY HAD BEEN." (Rev. 6:11)

CynicalBear contends this couldn't possibly be so...why, there just can't be any true church left on earth to be "killed just as they had been"...Why? 'Cause my fave "tribulation teacher" told me so! ["The church is not on this earth during the Tribulation." -- CB]

CB, just scratch the word "earth" out of v. 10 and scratch out the latter part of v. 11...and your pet teachings won't be "touched"...

[Salvation]

BTTT!

[CynicalBear]

No need to get so bent out of shape. I think you are simply missing my point on whether those who are asking for vengeance are “concerned” with what is happening on earth. When someone prays to those “saints” in heave they are asking those “saints” for assistance. That is not what is happening in that passage of Revelation 6. Those saints are simply being selfish if you will and asking for vengeance for their deaths. They are not listening to a petition from someone on earth and relaying that to God.

As to your ridicule of my belief that the church is no longer here on earth during the Tribulation I would suggest more prophecy study on your part. You could also answer my question as to any time those who are faithful to God having to experience His wrath. Or do you not believe the Tribulation is God’s wrath on the inhabitants of earth?

[CynicalBear]

So you think humans that have passed from this life are given the same tasks as the angels also?

[JCBreckenridge]

Right, because Nicaea has nothing at all to do with the Trinity.