Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?

catholic-convert ^ | July 11, 2012 | Steve Ray

[NYer]

Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?

A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…

Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints can’t do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!

Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?

An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, “Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the “dead in Christ” are those saints who have physically died. “For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess 4:16).

THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE “JESUS ALONE” DOCTRINE. From some people’s point of view, people who have died are classified as “dead saints,” who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people don’t want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, “JESUS ALONE” fails. If the so-called “dead saints” do anything then it is not “JESUS ALONE,” but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called “dead saints” are in fact not dead, but alive with God.

Dead or in paradise?

HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly “dead saints” who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no “dead saint” because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants

HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying “Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead” in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says “Jesus is the god of the living.” However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; “He is not God of the dead but of the living.”

• “God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mk 12: 26-27).

Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as “dead saints.”

Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?

WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than “dead saints” who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? “And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called “dead saints;” not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.

SORRY LEONARD…YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, “As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument.” He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, “For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun” (Eccles 9:6).

When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the person’s soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?

How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?

Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). “Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet” (Kings 13:20-21).

Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It can’t be much clearer than that!

The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ

JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE “DEAD SAINTS.” Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.

“Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?

This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that “dead saints” can’t do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.

So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?

[daniel1212]

I am most definitely not interested in your personal opinions.

You had been pinged to the post i was responding to, but as you are testify that definitely not interested in what Scripture teaches versus PTDS , i will indeed grant your desire, per Scriptural examples. (Mt. 10:14; Acts 13:46,47; 28:28)

[daniel1212]

I am more comfortable believing the dead in Christ have a function rather than having no function. I don’t think I’ve locked it down scripturally, but what I’ve considered certainly suggests thinking along these lines is supportable scripturally.

Believing the dead in Christ have a function rather than having no function is speculative if be reasonable, but this does not translate into believers on earth beseeching anyone else but God in Heaven, His throne, which is the issue, and the Holy Spirit provides zero examples or in instructions on who to pray to, or due to any lack in Christ, and instead He abundantly examples of prayer directly addressed to God, to whom believers in Christ come directly to, (Heb. 10:19) and instructs Him to be the one addressed in prayer, and sets forth Christ as the all sufficient mediator in both accessibility, availability and ability. (Heb. 2:17,18; 4:15,16; 7:25)

[Elsie]

Well; it SEEMS like 7000 more than 150!

[daniel1212]

Using that same kind of logic, since you don't see the deaths of all the Apostles in the Bible, do you believe that they therefore did not die?

Logically i am consistently that neither this or PTDS saints is warranted, as Scripture shows death to be the norm and the Holy Spirit records notable deviations from the norm, from lifespans of humans, to the number to toes, to being sinless, and (as said above but not appearing yet) and likewise the Holy Spirit abundantly examples prayer directly addressed to God, to whom believers in Christ come directly to, (Heb. 10:19) and instructs Him to be the one addressed in prayer, and sets forth Christ as the all sufficient mediator in both accessibility, availability and ability. (Heb. 2:17,18; 4:15,16; 7:25)

But not once does He provide an exceptions, that of any believer praying to anyone in heaven but the Lord, or in his instructions on who prayer to heaven is addressed, or due to any lack in Christ.

That even apostle did not die would be speculative, not a doctrine like PTDS, and which is based on speculation in attempts to support it by Scripture, which this tradition is not based on.

[xzins]

Yes, but you are assuming that communicating with God’s messengers is prayer. Why can’t it just be talking to? Why is it any different that asking you to pray with me about my grandson?

We know, for example, that angels see the face of God in regard to children with whom they are charged. We also know that Revelation pictures angels bringing the prayers of believers to God.

The bible indicate that angels have some role in prayer, a gathering and offering of them:

***Revelation 8: 3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.***

Cornelius might well be an example of that:

***Acts 10: 1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!” 4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked. The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. ***

[Alex Murphy]

The trinity is not a doctrinal issue in God’s word. The Father, Son, and Spirit exist, but so what?

Deuteronomy 13 says otherwise. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[xzins]

Thank you, AG, for your reminder of the perfection of the Lord’s Prayer. Your commentary on it is an excellent reflection: “I find that everything I need to lay before Him fits perfectly within that structure, in the proper priority - e.g. Thy will be done. Likewise, He is our daily bread (John 6:48, He is the bread of life and man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God - Matt 4:4).”

Since I’m talking a dimension about which I haven’t even the knowledge of a child, I would be cautious with my view that messengers of God are with us. But, it is clear: We “entertain angels...unaware...”

So, for my little grandson, who has an angel who sees the face of God, when I’m in his hospital room and I were to say, “If you’re here and listening at this moment, then please pray with me...”, I am only acting on what I believe is a spiritual reality due to what I read in the Bible. And I would consider it no different than asking you to pray with me. I do think the Lord hears my prayer, and that He is all I need. Nonetheless, I would ask YOU to pray with me, and I wouldn’t consider it to be a sign of lack of faith.

[daniel1212]

Edited: see added response below

Using that same kind of logic, since you don't see the deaths of all the Apostles in the Bible, do you believe that they therefore did not die?

Logically i am consistently that neither this or PTDS saints is warranted, as Scripture shows death to be the norm and the Holy Spirit records notable deviations from the norm, from lifespans of humans, to the number to toes, to being sinless, and (as said above but not appearing yet) and likewise the Holy Spirit abundantly examples prayer directly addressed to God, to whom believers in Christ come directly to, (Heb. 10:19) and instructs Him to be the one addressed in prayer, and sets forth Christ as the all sufficient mediator in both accessibility, availability and ability. (Heb. 2:17,18; 4:15,16; 7:25)

But not once does He provide an exceptions, that of any believer praying to anyone in heaven but the Lord, or in his instructions on who prayer to heaven is addressed, or due to any lack in Christ.

That even apostle did not die would be speculative, not a doctrine like PTDS, and which is based on speculation in attempts to support it by Scripture, which this tradition is not based on.

The New Testament does give examples of Christians asking for prayers from other Christians, such as this request: "I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf." (Rom 15:30) How this applies to saints who have died is discussed more fully and competently in a scripture-filled article about this subject..

Which attempt actually testifies to the sophistry RCAs must engage in when trying to support the PTDS tradition from Scripture. What Madrid does is try to look evangelical by invoking Scripture, but he can only post a lot of references on the unity of the body of Christ, and care for each other here, etc. and then try to extrapolate support for praying to the departed out of them, but for which he cannot find a single example among the multitudes of prayer to Heaven, or instructions, etc., and which ignores the manifest restrictions between communication btwn the heavenly realm and the earthly one, in which only God is prayed to and does not have to come to earth or the believer go to heaven to engage in two way communication, unlike mortals.

Rather than trying to support PTDS from Scripture as if that was the basis for it, and supported it, and thus be guilty of abusing Scripture, RCs should simply admit it is an extraBiblical doctrine, and that Rome's doctrines do not need actual Scriptural warrant, only that they do not actually contradict Scripture, but that Rome is the judge of that, and so evangelicals should just submit to her. For that is indeed the goal of RC apologetics, not that certitude of truth if from the Scriptures. Thus they may win some more tares who esteem a church over Scripture.

[count-your-change]

“WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than “dead saints” who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? “And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called “dead saints;” not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.”

A good enough question but not the primary ones.

If indeed this is Moses and Elijah had they been resurrected from their graves just for this event? Or had they been summoned from heaven? If so did they return there?

I know what the author means when I start asking questions.

[Brian Kopp DPM]

May God Bless you too.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“I don’t see anything special about 100 AD to warrant basing your entire position on it.”

1. A generation is less than 100 years, so logically, if an Apostolic Tradition was not passed on to the next generation, it wasn’t a tradition. If you prefer 90 years, 100 years, 120 years, go ahead. The burden of your truth claim is on you to substantiate.

2. My entire position is NOT based on your failure to demonstrate anything from 100 AD or before. That is just one of 12 categories I listed to demonstrate you have nothing.

3. I will point out you have provided ZERO evidence - from anywhere - in all the categories I listed. Nothing but empty air. Please provide anything, which you failed to do so far in more than 600 posts on this thread.

This brings me to your very humorous statement...

“Absence of evidence!= evidence of absence.”

Ironic that you actually wrote that! So we agree. You’ve got nothing to back up the truth claim of the article. Zero. Why is that? Why do you have a major belief that you can’t demonstrate is a Christian belief? Even more telling, why do you cling to a non-Christian belief and not care that it has no foundation in Christianity??

Where’s the beef???

[daniel1212]

"pillar and ground of truth" is referring to the subject "church", not "living God" in the prepositional phrase "of the living God"

I had not heard before of the "living God" being understood as being what "pillar and ground of truth" refers to, but that this verse teaches that the church is supreme over Scripture - which is what it is often invoked for - is more than what "ekklēsia zaō theos stulos kai hedraiōma ho/hē/to alētheia" states.

Scripture often uses words that essentially mean the same thing (faith confidence, etc.), and both stulos and hedraiōma essentially convey support, and the house of God is identified as being the church of the living God, which supports the truth, and is grounded in it.

The fact is that the Lord and His apostles and thus the church established their truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, the instruments and stewards of Divine revelation and inheritors of the promises, (Mt. 23:2; Rm. 3:2; 9:4) but which does render such assuredly infallible as per Rome, and superior in authority to Scripture, which is what Rome effectively claims (though i know you are Orthodox).

[JCBreckenridge]

I said there is evidence, from the 3rd and 4th century.

[presently no screen name]

This I am most definitely not interested in your personal opinions. and this May God Bless you too. don't go together. Don't use God's name in vain to suit an agenda.

Along with denying the HOLY SPIRIT and ignore God's Word when HE says the Holy Spirit is the Teacher. Daniel1212 is spirit filled so it is not his personal opinion.

Anyone ignoring God's Word always ends up FAILING and it started with Adam/Eve when they submitted to/bowed to 'another'.

[editor-surveyor]

Living in denial.

That place is sure full of catholics.

[Brian Kopp DPM]

May God bless you too.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“I said there is evidence, from the 3rd and 4th century.”

That certainly is evidence that praying to departed saints was added hundreds of years later - but no evidence that it was part of Apostolic Tradition or Christian practice by the Church, the Apostles and apparently not the second generation of Christians. Go out to 150AD and even later and it is nowhere to be found.

Later, it was added.

Was it of cultic influence or origin, like many things incorporated into Catholicism? We will not know.

All we know is that there is zero evidence it came through Christ or the Apostles.

And no one on this thread has posted the evidence to contradict that statement. I can only assume that if such evidence existed, it would be posted. It wasn’t.

[JCBreckenridge]

“That certainly is evidence that praying to departed saints was added hundreds of years later.”

So was the trinity.

[presently no screen name]

I walk in His Blessings EVERYDAY.

He is the BEST FATHER to those who HEAR and OBEY Him alone.